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Old 06-20-2009, 11:57 PM   #586
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If the parent is going to suffer financially or the child is gonna have a crappy upbringing, then the baby should just be put to death? Even if you have a bad childhood/life, living is living. And people sometimes forget how great actually living is.
Not my point at all. oscar was grumbling about sexually irresponsible people women and I was pointing out that they will always exist, whether abortion is legal or not. Someone who gets unwantedly pregnant or gets others unwantedly pregnant five times in an (apparently) fairly short period is clearly irresponsible to begin with, whether an abortion happens or not. Speculations about the hypothetical future child's quality of life are neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, and I never include them in my own arguments on this topic.

And yeah, the thread stopped being about Sarah Palin several pages back, after Letterman made his apology and people therefore lost interest in that topic but kept jabbering away anyhow. It happens...
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Old 06-21-2009, 09:49 AM   #587
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Not my point at all. oscar was grumbling about sexually irresponsible people women and I was pointing out that they will always exist, whether abortion is legal or not. Someone who gets unwantedly pregnant or gets others unwantedly pregnant five times in an (apparently) fairly short period is clearly irresponsible to begin with, whether an abortion happens or not. Speculations about the hypothetical future child's quality of life are neither here nor there as far as I'm concerned, and I never include them in my own arguments on this topic.
ahh I see that now. thanks for clearing that up

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And yeah, the thread stopped being about Sarah Palin several pages back, after Letterman made his apology and people therefore lost interest in that topic but kept jabbering away anyhow. It happens...
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:15 PM   #588
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What happened to adult male RESPONSIBILITY?
We're talking about abortion. Women give birth, not men. I'm all for child support and cops and lawyers chasing after these deadbeats. Adult male responsibility is just as paramount as female responsibility. Also there are men who like abortion precisely because they don't want to deal with child support.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:19 PM   #589
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Do you equally condemn the men who are having all the fun sex with these sluts?
I'm not interested in identity politics. I'm not condeming women to hell or blaming them for all faults. I think men can be as screwed up as anyone. Males can be sluts too.

If a man RAPES a woman I don't blame her for wanting an abortion. If a father kills his daughter because she got pregnant he is a MURDERER and should be punished accordingly.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:54 PM   #590
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:58 PM   #591
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Would you consider her more responsible if she'd had five kids in that same time instead? Do you think such a person would likely be a level-headed, responsible parent who puts her children's needs first? Do you think such a person would have dutifully put all five children up for adoption to someone who might do better or have better resources? One-time contraceptive failures (by the device or the user) are one thing, but when you see someone repeatedly subjecting themselves to painful, invasive and costly medical procedures when quite effective measures to prevent the situation in the first place are available, it's a pretty safe bet you're looking at a seriously self-destructive individual, regardless whether the problem is poor money management, timidity about insisting partners use condoms, 'just not wanting to bother with it at the time,' pathologically compulsive sexual behavior (or even compulsion to get pregnant in the absence of wanting children), all of the above, or whatever else. These kinds of problems have nothing to do with whether abortion is legal or not, and if you think criminalizing it will 'fix' people like this individual you're mistaken. There are far too many incompetent single mothers of multiple children by different partners out there to argue otherwise.
For me a child that is alive is better than one dead and certainly there are line ups of childless couples who want to raise a baby. It's not about fixing a person it's about having people deal with the consequences of their actions. Abortion is just a way of trying to avoid them.

Now of course I'm the type of guy that has no fear of forgoing a high consumptive standard of living to pay for unexpected children and from what my parents told me I was unplanned but I'm pretty happy they kept me. They also had to sacrifice a consumptive standard of living (they never earned high wages) to keep me but my Dad was responsible. My parents couldn't pay for my education but I got a student loan and did odd jobs to make my own way. If he wasn't responsible and I was adopted instead I still would rather be alive than dead. My mom also had dementia for 15 years before she died and I helped my Dad take care of her despite less money. It's amazing what people are capable of when they are flexible.

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Nah, stanching your own seed is woman's work. Ever played hot potato?
Hence we have child support and we try and force men to to pay-up precisely because we think men should be responsible as well. The act of abortion is more of a woman's issue because of biology not because women don't matter. I want men to not escape their financial and moral duties.

The problem of abortion today is that it looks like lady justice taking off her blindfold and tipping the scales against the children. It's like negating the child and treating the child like an 'it' because the child cannot speak.
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Old 06-21-2009, 12:59 PM   #592
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O for the day when abortion is illegal and there won't ever be any more abortions .... oh, wait.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:07 PM   #593
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O for the day when abortion is illegal and there won't ever be any more abortions .... oh, wait.
Crime doesn't disappear when we have a justice system. Should we abandon that as well?
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:12 PM   #594
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Oscar...

You aren't very well equipped for these types of discussions.
Should only Ph. Ds discuss this? If that's the case why have any women decide on whether to have abortion or not? Should they have a test to see if they are 'equipped' to even discuss it?

If you didn't notice I like the Socratic method and bringing out discussions allows for more input and people search for different examples to illustrate the problem. I don't discuss to force someone to agree. They can disagree with any evidence they want and do their best argument.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:18 PM   #595
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Crime doesn't disappear when we have a justice system. Should we abandon that as well?
Yes, absolutely. That's exactly the same thing. Come on.

I don't say that in the "well, we're never going to make it go away, so if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" sense. I say it in the "it's never going to stop, but I think it's better that the option exists for women to have a safe, legal opportunity."

What a shame I have to spell that out for you.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:34 PM   #596
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I'll regret this later, because there isn't a morning after pill for this but...


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If you didn't notice I like the Socratic method and bringing out discussions allows for more input and people search for different examples to illustrate the problem.
Your "socratic" method assumes some knowledge on both sides. Since you have none, and change your statements like regular people change underwear, your "socratic" method is really just you hoping to make a point then failing to, and then avoiding any real questions. You're like a junior level Indy.



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I don't discuss to force someone to agree.
But you'll force me to have a baby.


Oh wait, bringing my gender into it is, what was it? Yes; "identity politics."

No, I stand corrected. It was only "identity politics" when YOUR gender was involved.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:36 PM   #597
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f that's the case why have any women decide on whether to have abortion or not? Should they have a test to see if they are 'equipped' to even discuss it?

This is what I'm saying. You've already stated that this is what you want; now you're using this as an example of an "out-there" idea.
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:37 PM   #598
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Hence we have child support and we try and force men to to pay-up precisely because we think men should be responsible as well.
How much do you know about family law?

Because this child support thing we have works GREAT!!!
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Old 06-21-2009, 01:45 PM   #599
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Now of course I'm the type of guy that has no fear of forgoing a high consumptive standard of living to pay for unexpected children
Honestly purpleoscar, about 99% of what you say sounds very familiar to me, because I spent so many years in an academic setting. Your conclusions, your general lack of empathy, and the means of argument are very academic, ivory-tower, and remind me of all those profs who hadn't left their offices and lived in the real world for about 50 years. They were brilliant men and women and wrote brilliant and inquisitive journal articles that had about zero application in the real world.

This is how your posts read to me, when you start talking about "consumptive standards of living" and so on, as if you think that because there is an economic theory that dictates that 2+2=4, then we should simply fit ourselves into that equation regardless of individual circumstances. In your world maybe there are only square pegs and square holes so that it all makes sense, but out there on the street, the things that you write in here have no value and would contribute absolutely nothing to improving the situations of the people whom you describe here like they are neat little packages with no variation.
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Old 06-21-2009, 02:11 PM   #600
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Honestly purpleoscar, about 99% of what you say sounds very familiar to me, because I spent so many years in an academic setting. Your conclusions, your general lack of empathy, and the means of argument are very academic, ivory-tower, and remind me of all those profs who hadn't left their offices and lived in the real world for about 50 years. They were brilliant men and women and wrote brilliant and inquisitive journal articles that had about zero application in the real world.
The vast majority of people consider education to be positive and a way to enhance and advance society. Whether you like it or not, education does impact the real world, and the most successful and advanced countries have plenty of ivory-towers where research, thinking, writing, and debate does impact culture and policy around the world.

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In your world maybe there are only square pegs and square holes so that it all makes sense, but out there on the street, the things that you write in here have no value and would contribute absolutely nothing to improving the situations of the people whom you describe here like they are neat little packages with no variation.
Actually, its comments like this that contribute absolutely nothing.
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