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Old 06-18-2009, 11:03 PM   #556
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Well that is not a right nor left issue, so try again and tell me just one, I dare you...
I think it was a right and left issue but I'll concede that's the main one and that I can't think of any other ones.

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No, they don't. They don't need to be compared. Do you honestly think we needed to say well have other cultures worked without slaves?
There are different kinds of comparisons. You also can compare those who are considered slaves to those who aren't and when you don't see any reason why slaves should be slaves you've inducted enough to disagree with slavery, just like in my prior slavery post. The reality is that some countries will do experiments first and it's very helpful in convincing people that things can be different in the straggling countries.

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Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay oversimplified. We're taught to hate, don't fool yourself.
Yes but being taught didn't stop me from learning and looking at other sources beyond tradition which requires enough freedom in our society so I can make a different choice. Nobody is putting me in prison for supporting gay marriage and this is because of the laws that have been built upon in the past. Whether it's called "progress" or not I don't care which term.

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I think Martha summarized it best... If it affected you, you would approach this entirely differently. We've talked about this before, you come off as someone who almost completely lacks empathy. I don't know you well enough to really say you do, but that's how you come off in 99% of the time. And I think because of that you approach social issues almost robotically. It might just be the nature of forum communication, I don't know, but that's how it is...
It is the nature of forum communication just like emails. In my office my boss doesn't like emails precisely because emotional content is stripped. Opinions look cold without facial expressions. People also tend to feel more offended when someone is critiquing what you did as opposed talking to someone face to face. I make the same point about people who bump into each other on the street:

"Oh excuse me, sorry."

versus someone cutting you off in traffic:

"Screw you, you bastard!! Blah, blah, blah." Flipping the bird.

Now back to what Martha said. I already posted before that Conservatives feel frustrated about abortion. If liberals don't give a crap then I'm sure conservatives could look at that as a lack of empathy. It's not just liberals who get in a funk over social issues.

Maybe people look like they have a lack of empathy precisely because they are focussed on their own agendas or just plainly disagree on issues.
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Old 06-18-2009, 11:32 PM   #557
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That has nothing to do with what I was talking about.

By 2006, three years had elapsed since Halpern and the sky hadn't fallen just because we had gays and lesbians marry with dignity like the rest of us could. Therefore, the public sentiment had shifted from the divisiveness that was there previously.

But you insist that democracy is the fastest way and I have shown you more than once now that there was nothing inherently democratic about this. It was the most blatant sort of "judicial activism" which you presumably abhor since we have unelected members of the court basically running public policy. You haven't addressed this nor do I expect you to.
I just don't feel Canadians want to fight the decision and many frankly agree with it. Conservatives for the most part probably don't like it and especially activist judges, but it's a low priority. Even the environment got pushed back behind economics in the public eye. It's not an activist decision that prevents heterosexuals from marrying so many people don't care. Churches are protected for now so it seems all quiet. If the conservatives get a majority and there is a push to fight gay marriage then I'll admit that Canada hasn't moved beyond the U.S. I just don't see any governments doing a notwithstanding clause without some political flack. It seems like a dead issue to me. Can any government do a notwithstanding clause after so much time has passed?

I think if there was judicial activism in a way that would affect a larger section of the population there would be more uproar. I think the public has moved on.

Personally I'm more interested in a Conservative majority for reforming the senate so they can be elected instead of appointed.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:20 AM   #558
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I think it was a right and left issue but I'll concede that's the main one and that I can't think of any other ones.
Then you proved my point... thank you for being honest.




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Now back to what Martha said. I already posted before that Conservatives feel frustrated about abortion. If liberals don't give a crap then I'm sure conservatives could look at that as a lack of empathy. It's not just liberals who get in a funk over social issues.

Maybe people look like they have a lack of empathy precisely because they are focussed on their own agendas or just plainly disagree on issues.
That's not it. It goes beyond that, we've talked about it before and honestly it just doesn't belong in this thread.

We agree on certain principles but your logic on how to get there scares me. You have a revisionist sense of history which has been pointed out to you, you don't seem to understand certain definitions, and if it doesn't effect you then it's not a priority...
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Old 06-19-2009, 02:47 AM   #559
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Yes but you are aware that Republic heavily influenced Karl Marx and that North Americans didn't practice this with their own children.
Hmmmmm no, the strongest classical Greek influence on Marx, by far, was Epicureanism (his doctoral dissertation topic, in fact), which isn't at all a 'Platonic' school of thought. You might perhaps describe Hegel, one of Marx's strongest contemporary influences, as heavily influenced by Plato in his anti-empiricism (though Marx's other great contemporary philosophical influence, Feuerbach, was decidedly not anti-empiricist), but only in a far more general way than you're describing here.

And what you really mean is "North Americans didn't practice this with their white, Christian, English-speaking children." I was citing that instance as an illustration of the broader point that when you see such practices occuring in human history, almost always the context is one of forcibly imposing a new system--political, cultural, social, whatever--on a group whose allegiance to it might be in doubt were the biological parents allowed control over their children. And that's also what Plato's advocating--the guardians as a social entity have yet to be created; they aren't some random group of Greeks who are already out there, any more than red-skinned 'good Christian citizens' were already out there as far as the US and Canadian governments were concerned. The whole idea is to make them 'your own children'--good Christian children, good guardian children; their actual genetic ancestry is beside the point, otherwise there'd be no use in bothering to indoctrinate them bring them up within your preferred system in this way.
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I wasn't trying to assert that there was a laboratory based education campaign. I'm saying that you don't need a laboratory to witness Martin Luther King speak eloquently and have an understanding that he's a person like anyone else. So if 'scientific' is the wrong word then maybe inductive reasoning would be better...
I think I'm not getting my point across very well here, so let me take one more stab at it, in an anecdotal way this time.

When you talk with elderly white Americans who went from supporting (or simply not caring about) racial segregation to firmly opposing it during the course of the Civil Rights era--and I often do, because my parents were both actively involved in the Movement and I'm always curious to hear how it looked from 'the other side' of their generation--you will seldom, if ever, hear stories to the effect of "You know, I'd always supported segregation because I thought black people were too stupid to participate in mainstream society, but then I saw MLK Jr. speak and realized they could be just as smart as anyone else." Instead, what you'll hear over and over are stories like, "I remember seeing on TV what they were doing at Selma to these peaceful marchers kneeling in prayer--clubbing and gassing and and setting dogs on them, breaking bottles over their heads and jeering at them while they lay there bleeding--and I saw that all these men and women and children were people just like me, and I was sickened that human beings could treat other people this way." (I'm referring to Northerners here, of course--Southern whites of that generation accepted desegregation only once forced to, save for the tiny handful who'd supported it all along, so you won't find many 'conversion stories' to speak of.)

This isn't scientific thinking or inductive reasoning; it's a moral response, a moment or process of recognizing oneself in the other and therefore having your eyes opened to the cruelty of the system--in this case, that it isn't really about what the benign-sounding term 'separation' suggests, but rather the active persecution, suppression and exclusion of 'people just like me' from the dignity of free participation in public life, backed up not by nature but by brutality. And all the prejudicial notions about 'what black people are like'--which, in fact, many continued to hold to varying degrees long after changing their views on segregation itself--are then seen for what they really are: unworthy and unjust excuses for some horridly costly privileges, masquerading as rational imperatives needed to prevent society from going down in flames.

I'm not saying that more academic forms of challenge to such views, or court-ordered measures as anitram pointed out, aren't important; far from it. And in some cases, they're all that is needed. But the type of thinking I'm talking about isn't based on studying evidence and drawing logical conclusions--and neither are the particular kinds of "delusions" it shatters, which is why it's so necessary.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:10 AM   #560
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This thread wins for Most Off Topic of the year...
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Old 06-19-2009, 07:36 PM   #561
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You wouldn't be singing this bullshit song if any of this directly affected you.
This might be valid if you didn't think about aborted human babies as the equivalent of bacteria and pond life. Frankly, no abortion-on-demand advocate is in a position to lecture anyone about human rights or empathy.

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Now back to what Martha said. I already posted before that Conservatives feel frustrated about abortion. If liberals don't give a crap then I'm sure conservatives could look at that as a lack of empathy. It's not just liberals who get in a funk over social issues.

Maybe people look like they have a lack of empathy precisely because they are focussed on their own agendas or just plainly disagree on issues.
Indeed

I get the sense that a lot of people here think of themselves as liberals and reject conservative ideas because they have had a few bad personal experiences with 'Christian' Dominionists types, which, as I and others have tried to explain - including, to be fair, some of the liberal leaning posters on FYM - is really a form of theocracy, and not real conservatism.

I'm sorry if some left wing Americans think that they can automatically dismiss all and every conservative thought process or idea just because some right wing American waved a bible in their face, or said something homophobic, but ultimately dismissing arguments on the basis of purely personal experience is short term emotionalism triumphing over rationality.
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:03 PM   #562
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but ultimately dismissing arguments on the basis of purely personal experience is short term emotionalism triumphing over rationality.
The next time you see this occur why don't you point it out to us...
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:45 AM   #563
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Frankly, no abortion-on-demand advocate is in a position to lecture anyone about human rights or empathy.


thusly, women are neither human, nor have rights, nor deserve empathy?
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:38 PM   #564
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thusly, women are neither human, nor have rights, nor deserve empathy?
If they kill people for convenience sake then no. It has to be a case by case basis in which the mother has an increased chance of dying or there is incest or rape. It has to be something out of a person's choice. If a woman makes a choice because sex is fun then there's no sympathy from me because as women are adults then they must have RESPONSIBILITY. The greens on the left talk about responsibility for life and the planet even to the point of ignoring obvious economic consequences but what about humans? Or are they just more people who wish an end of times for humans and abortion becomes indifferent at this point?
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:43 PM   #565
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Oh, so this thread is about abortion now?
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:43 PM   #566
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If they kill people for convenience sake then no.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:44 PM   #567
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Oh, so this thread is about abortion now?
The guys like to discuss it.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:48 PM   #568
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Hey, you know what? Sex is totally fun. I'm going to go get myself knocked up just so I can have an abortion.

Check y'all later.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:52 PM   #569
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Hey, you know what? Sex is totally fun. I'm going to go get myself knocked up just so I can have an abortion.

Check y'all later.
Scary thing is that there are some who do that. My brother knew a co-worker who had five. Did she get raped 5 times? BTW she boasted about it. Now that's pretty cold to me.

For that 9 yr old girl who was excommunicated for having an abortion I'm with her because each situation may be different because of undue influence and the risk of dying in giving birth. Adoption should be looked at in every opportunity it can apply to. I have an uncle that was adopted and I'm glad he lived.
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:54 PM   #570
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each situation may be different because of undue influence.
ya think??
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