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Old 06-18-2009, 08:42 PM   #526
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When I mean scientific, I mean a rational process that has evidence to back up the claims.
Ok, but that's still not how all things occured in this country.


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Understand dualism and you will understand lots of Judeo-Christian ethics.
I was raised on Judeo-Christian ethics, but nice try...


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Some people will not agree with you no matter what. People who are believers will be afraid of going to hell. Now I believe hell is a mental projection based on no evidence so when real evidence shows up to me it becomes compelling. You're just going to have to be patient. New generations won't see as much fuss unless a wave of Christian fundamentalism takes over the country.
I understand patience, but I will not be silent. And unfortunately a wave of Christian revisionist have taken over a very vocal part of the country.


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Look I'm not a politically correct person. The drama is pointless. Jesus was a martyr and so was Martin Luther King. I was simply stating that the left has crimes on its hand and you finding the process we have as too slow sounded authoritarian to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.
You are wrong. This all goes back to fguy's silly post about liberals living in a dream world and conservatives not being able to handle a change in their status quo or some nonsense like that...

All men are created equal... freedom... these are just words and phrases used by social conservatives, but what they mean is only for those who are like me.

I honestly believe that every man and every woman should have the same rights regardless of religion, race, creed, etc... If there life doesn't impede on others they should be allowed their freedom to do so. Period!!!

It's simple, I don't need any "scientific process" to figure it out. You know why? Because I'm human. I'm not "blind".
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:46 PM   #527
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Look at all this scientific process going on.

Are you sure you want to bring the debate to this level?



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Old 06-18-2009, 08:46 PM   #528
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I was simply stating that the left has crimes on its hand

As does the Right.

Do you read anything but what you find on the internet?
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:51 PM   #529
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Are you sure you want to bring the debate to this level?



Wow, you missed the point by miles and miles miles...

Good job.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:53 PM   #530
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As does the Right.

Do you read anything but what you find on the internet?
Statiscally, far left ideology has many more millions of deaths on its hands than the right.

I am sorry if this fact is problematic for you.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:55 PM   #531
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In case there was any doubt, guys, clearly we're ALL batshit crazy!
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:58 PM   #532
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In case there was any doubt, guys, clearly we're ALL batshit crazy!
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:02 PM   #533
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Statiscally, far left ideology has many more millions of deaths on its hands than the right.
Well that's a pretty dumb statement to make when definitions of left and right change, and when you get into far extremes they really no longer still exist in lefts or rights...

But hey another valid effort...
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:08 PM   #534
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Statiscally, far left ideology has many more millions of deaths on its hands than the right.
We've now resorted to "I know you are, but what am I! Nyah!"

Awesome. To think I was having a boring day.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:09 PM   #535
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Forcibly removing children from their parents isn't a "Communist" idea, and the practice has often been employed on a wide scale throughout human history in contexts of forced assimilation into some new polity, tribe, nation, or other such community. For instance, as you probably know, in both the US and Canada in the 19th century, Native American/Aboriginal children were forcibly separated from their parents en masse and removed to 'Indian boarding schools' where they were assigned new names, forbidden to speak their native languages, required to attend church services, and made to work on local farms and factories during breaks, in the name of properly equipping and 'civilizing' them to become productive citizens of their countries.

At any rate, in the Republic, Plato recommends the sharing of children (and wives, and property) for the elite 'guardian' class only, to reinforce their sense of community as a collective devoted entirely to serving the greater good of the polis' other inhabitants, who of course play no role in political decision-making as they would in a democracy--which he explicitly disdains as the nightmare of what 'rule by the poor' would look like: "And then democracy comes into being after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power".
Yes but you are aware that Republic heavily influenced Karl Marx and that North Americans didn't practice this with their own children. What N. Americans did to the Native Americans was more akin to ethnic cleansing than an attempt at a Utopia.

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...the necessity of Noble Lies, another ostensibly 'conservative' idea associated with Plato.

(again, I'm largely being facetious here)
You're just in a facetious mood today.

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Such as? Are you referring to agricultural work? (classical Greece being primarily an agricultural society, even in prosperous city-states like Athens) In traditional agricultural societies, women (free or otherwise) are generally out working the fields all day right alongside the men; their workplaces and homes are one and the same. Domestic technology advancements and the emergence of paid childcare systems and universal schooling (despite shrinking families, which mean fewer hands to help with childcare at home) likely have as much or more to do with increased employment oportunities for women as changes in the job market per se.

In any case, women in classical Athens (and classical Greece in general) lacked property rights and other contractual rights which might have allowed them to personally directly profit from their labor. Most actual citizens of classical Athens were landholding men, and field slaves were the backbone of their labor force; free artisans and merchants obviously existed too, though this type of work was stigmatized.
I think we are agreeing here for the most part just a difference in that you are more erudite than I am. I was talking about property rights in the modern context (sorry). Yes I agree that technology has allowed women more employment opportunites. I'm sure that some people would also add that WWII added a demand that women enter the workforce.

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This simply isn't true; the Civil Rights Movement wasn't a public education campaign, and scientific studies on the intelligence of African-Americans weren't pivotal at all to its progress. The Atlantic slave trade wasn't based on 'scientific' arguments either, nor even on 'traditional' views about the nature of Africans, as there really weren't any to speak of until financial opportunity came knocking. You're equating moral-philosophical problems with scientific ones, and that just doesn't work; some questions simply can't be answered in a laboratory, and vice versa.
I wasn't trying to assert that there was a laboratory based education campaign. I'm saying that you don't need a laboratory to witness Martin Luther King speak eloquently and have an understanding that he's a person like anyone else. So if 'scientific' is the wrong word then maybe inductive reasoning would be better:

Inductive reasoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Induction is employed, for example, in using specific propositions such as:

This ice is cold. (or: All ice I have ever touched was cold.)
This billiard ball moves when struck with a cue. (or: Of one hundred billiard balls struck with a cue, all of them moved.)
...to infer general propositions such as:

All ice is cold.
All billiard balls move when struck with a cue.
Another example would be:

3+5=8 and eight is an even number. Therefore, an odd number added to another odd number will result in an even number.
If black people and women can reason as well as a (white) man (because it can be witnessed) then they should not be treated less than (white) men. The arguments of racists and sexists would be to look at them as inferior intellectually which there is no evidence of.

Do I need a Ph.D. to agree with you guys!!!!!?
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:14 PM   #536
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Is it just me or are people purposely being more obtuse than normal around here...
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:19 PM   #537
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If black people and women can reason as well as a (white) man (because it can be witnessed) then they should not be treated less than (white) men.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:22 PM   #538
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I understand patience, but I will not be silent. And unfortunately a wave of Christian revisionist have taken over a very vocal part of the country.
I'm certainly not saying you have to be silent. The left is right on somethings and they can compete in the realm of ideas just like anyone else. When they screw up the right can be overly judgmental and the left can be utopian.

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You are wrong. This all goes back to fguy's silly post about liberals living in a dream world and conservatives not being able to handle a change in their status quo or some nonsense like that...
It's not nonsense. Dreaming may not be the best term, but mental projections about what makes a better world doesn't always conform to reality. Paul Krugman thinks that going massive on the deficit irregardless will get us out of the recession goes against the reality that investors will need a reason to invest in U.S. bonds. Interest rates will naturally move up causing homeowners to pay higher interest so that bondholders will even bother investing in the U.S. This is one example. Certainly Communism is an extreme example of radicalism but a real example. When John Lennon talks of no borders and countries is he mentally projecting something that has a chance of happening or is he on solid ground?

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All men are created equal... freedom... these are just words and phrases used by social conservatives, but what they mean is only for those who are like me.

I honestly believe that every man and every woman should have the same rights regardless of religion, race, creed, etc... If there life doesn't impede on others they should be allowed their freedom to do so. Period!!!

It's simple, I don't need any "scientific process" to figure it out. You know why? Because I'm human. I'm not "blind".
Right so we agree except you don't like my use of the word science. Is induction, or reason better? Philosophical ideas can build on themselves as well.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:22 PM   #539
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Do I need a Ph.D. to agree with you guys!!!!!?

No, but you should at least understand what you yourself are trying to say.

More often than not, you post something, then find you didn't understand what you posted, so you have to backtrack.

Think it through a little before you post.
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Old 06-18-2009, 09:26 PM   #540
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If black people and women can reason as well as a (white) man (because it can be witnessed) then they should not be treated less than (white) men.
I don't agree with your premise as to how we arrived at equal rights for women and blacks, but I'll go along with it for a second: are you okay with it having taken hundreds of years to arrive at those conclusions? Should gays be okay with potentially waiting another hundred years until the rest of us can gather sufficient "evidence" to convince us they deserve equal treatment, too?
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