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Old 06-18-2009, 05:48 PM   #511
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Yeah, we should have used science before we let women vote, freed them black folk and let them marry our white women.
Yeah and how did people get convinced? Evidence showed that women and blacks could be as intelligent as men. It was demonstratable. We shouldn't change things because we feel we should. We should change things because it can be proven. If the south just wanted to have black people as slaves because it's economically beneficial to the idle-rich that wouldn't be a good argument on their part, as historically it wasn't a good argument. Britain already abolished slavery so there was a precident on top of educated women and blacks already existing. There was plenty of reason.

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How neo-con of you...
There has been military successes in the past. I'm simply being open to see what actually happens. It's possible that 10 years from now Iraq will still be a democracy and influence the region but it's also possible that it won't. Hussein is dead and they have elections there. It's impossible to reverse that. If in the long run Bush is proven wrong new generations will most likely not want to practice preemption at all and that method will be a dead-end in history. Just like Bill Clinton's inaction in the '90's is also a dead-end. Maybe a middle ground of some military response is the correct answer instead of preemption or inaction?
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:03 PM   #512
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Yeah and how did people get convinced? Evidence showed that women and blacks could be as intelligent as men. It was demonstratable.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by "evidence"? Because this just seems like a no-brainer to me. I don't look at women and blacks and think 'hmm, I need evidence to show me that they're just as intelligent as me, otherwise I'll treat them inhumanely'. No, I look at all people and see humans who deserve the same basic human rights that I enjoy.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:06 PM   #513
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Yeah and how did people get convinced? Evidence showed that women and blacks could be as intelligent as men. It was demonstratable. We shouldn't change things because we feel we should. We should change things because it can be proven. If the south just wanted to have black people as slaves because it's economically beneficial to the idle-rich that wouldn't be a good argument on their part, as historically it wasn't a good argument. Britain already abolished slavery so there was a precident on top of educated women and blacks already existing. There was plenty of reason.
Wow, they teach history a little different up there don't they? I'm pretty convinced you live in an entirely different world sometimes.


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There has been military successes in the past. I'm simply being open to see what actually happens. It's possible that 10 years from now Iraq will still be a democracy and influence the region but it's also possible that it won't. Hussein is dead and they have elections there. It's impossible to reverse that. If in the long run Bush is proven wrong new generations will most likely not want to practice preemption at all and that method will be a dead-end in history. Just like Bill Clinton's inaction in the '90's is also a dead-end. Maybe a middle ground of some military response is the correct answer instead of preemption or inaction?
Um, yeah I was just saying that you're a neo-con, you talk a lot of the "true conservatives" this and that, but when it comes to this aspect you are not a "true conservative".
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:08 PM   #514
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Of course, if Plato was correct about women's capabilities and Aristotle was wrong, then one implication of this is that Aristotle was not, in fact, deriving all his convictions from careful observation of nature as he liked to believe, but was also looking in nature for confirmation of what he wanted to be true.
I would also like to add that in ancient times the kind of work that men had to do made it more likely that women would gather and raise children than do what the men did on most occasions. Now that we have much more technology to save labor women have many more opportunities now for employment that wouldn't have been available at the time of Aristotle. And with women earning a living they can own capital and have much more of a stake and influence in politics than just relying on men for income. Even Plato separated classes of women because he thought few women would be available to compete for positions to be philosopher leaders for economic reasons at that time. This is why Aristotle would look smarter back then and redundant today.

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Yeah, Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks should have patiently waited for the racists to catch on. Hey, in a generation or two, they'd have finally got their seats at the front of the bus, so no biggie.
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I know right, I wish someone would have told them if you wait the racist will eventually come around and then the conservatives will say it's OK.
These comments look facetious to me. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks worked within a Republic. White men explained why they deserved equal rights to each other, then women and then blacks used those same arguments for themselves successfully. Some people didn't like it but they grew old and died.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:10 PM   #515
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These comments look facetious to me. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks worked within a Republic. White men explained why they deserved equal rights to each other, then women and then blacks used those same arguments for themselves successfully. Some people didn't like it but they grew old and died.
Oh my...
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:20 PM   #516
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Yeah and how did people get convinced? Evidence showed that women and blacks could be as intelligent as men. It was demonstratable. We shouldn't change things because we feel we should. We should change things because it can be proven.





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These comments look facetious to me. Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks worked within a Republic. White men explained why they deserved equal rights to each other, then women and then blacks used those same arguments for themselves successfully. Some people didn't like it but they grew old and died.




Look at all this scientific process going on.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:30 PM   #517
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Can you elaborate on what you mean by "evidence"? Because this just seems like a no-brainer to me. I don't look at women and blacks and think 'hmm, I need evidence to show me that they're just as intelligent as me, otherwise I'll treat them inhumanely'. No, I look at all people and see humans who deserve the same basic human rights that I enjoy.
That's what I mean. It's demonstratable in that you can see for yourself and so can others. You don't need a complex experiment for something that simple. Sure there are wars like the civil war (because some people know the truth but don't care because they don't want to work for a living and prefer slaves), but today no one can prove blacks are inferior in any scientific categorical way. Martin Luther King made a point that was more accurate in that you had to judge people individually by their character. Sure he was a martyr but that didn't kill his point of view precisely because others agreed and understood.
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:39 PM   #518
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So then why are so many of your brothers blind to seeing that gay couples aren't inferior to them? Why is your side so slow to figure these things out?
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Old 06-18-2009, 06:43 PM   #519
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How much demonstrable data was there for Lincoln to make his decision on the Emancipation Proclamation?

Keep in mind, it was primarily a Southern issue.

I don't know the exact answer but I do know, his "scientific theory" was so well fleshed out that it took 100 years to set it right*. 100 fucking grueling years for some folk.

Seems to me he just made that decision (for among other reasons) because of the basic principles of human decency. He had no reason at all to think the South would like it.

*ETA
I'm not saying it was even set right, just relatively speaking to make a point.
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Old 06-18-2009, 07:40 PM   #520
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Look at all this scientific process going on.
I agree. Lots of progess. Look who's president now. I didn't say there was zero struggle. It took centuries for democracy to even show up again. It's actually possible to have dark periods along the way.

Do you even try to understand what people are talking about or do you like painting conservatives as associated with refuse?

These guys didn't tolerate conservatives or most anybody who disagreed:



You're going to have to tolerate political competition and see it through that way. Killing Martin Luther King made him into a martyr. Attacking conservatives will do the same. It's about persistance and effort. Like I said. It may take generations to get what you want.

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So then why are so many of your brothers blind to seeing that gay couples aren't inferior to them? Why is your side so slow to figure these things out?
Here's what some Christian conservatives say that I've heard personally:

They are afraid of their children being influenced and think many homosexuals were influenced that way. The gay pride parades show their culture is based on sexual orientation whereas heterosexuals don't define their culture solely on sexuality. They feel that homosexuals are promiscuous more than the average heterosexual. They would like their kids to have kids and see their biological line continue on. They think that marriage is a term that fits with their particular religious point of view. Some feel that homosexuals have enough rights as it is and marriage can only be with a man and a woman for biological reasons.

Again this is what I've heard. There are maybe many other arguments that other social conservatives make as well.

The best way to convince them will be to pile on the evidence with psychology studies and experiences in other countries that allow gay marriage. Some will never believe in it in their lifetimes but new generations will think "what do I care? How does that interfere with my choices?" Remember heterosexuals will still deep down have their own preference, meaning that they prefer heterosexual activity to homosexual activity. The difference is that if gay marriage is allowed people can tolerate each other as opposed to accept. You won't get all Jews and Muslims to accept each others beliefs but it's possible to make laws so that they can co-exist and tolerate each other. There are gay pride parades but many heterosexuals will prefer to go somewhere else for entertainment.

Eventually conservatives will decide to pursue higher priorities. This is why there are some homosexuals who are conservative (because they support other conservative ideas) and feel they can influence tolerance that way.

I also heard of a scientific study that said conservatives can get disgusted easier than liberals but that could be another fad study.

http://files.yoelinbar.net/disgust_conservatism.pdf

I think both liberals and conservatives can get disgusted and view each side as "bat shit crazy".
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:00 PM   #521
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I agree. Lots of progess. Look who's president now. I didn't say there was zero struggle. It took centuries for democracy to even show up again. It's actually possible to have dark periods along the way.
Yes, I agree with all of this, I just don't agree with your theory that it came about from "scientific process". I don't think you quite understand the scientific process.

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Do you even try to understand what people are talking about or do you like painting conservatives as associated with refuse?
I have tried for 34 years of my life to understand social conservatives, and I simply cannot. They talk about "freedom" but then try and deny folks that are different from them rights. They talk about love and forgiveness but condemn and judge every chance they can. They have been on the wrong side of every single social movenment in this country's history. How can they be so wrong? I will never understand. So yes, I've tried but you guys haven't given me much to work with...

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You're going to have to tolerate political competition and see it through that way. Killing Martin Luther King made him into a martyr. Attacking conservatives will do the same.
Don't even try to make that comparison. You should honestly be ashamed of some of the things you say in here...
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:07 PM   #522
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Well I wouldn't look at Aristotle with quite a modern lens as that...Whether he wanted women to be inferior I don't think is what scholars would view it as.
My post was mischievous in nature, and not meant in the context of taking yours as a serious philosophical argument. I wouldn't recommend anyone use Plato and Aristotle as their jumpoff point for a debate about women's place in society to begin with (as opposed to a study of the history of ideas on said topic in Western thought); the basic conceptual foundations you'd be starting from are simply too remote.
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On the other hand Plato's idealism of the perfect state looked like an ancient version of communism where babies are taken from the womb and sent away from the mother to be nursed by other lactating women to break the familial bonds. Most people (including liberals) would support mostly a basic family especially with all the child murderers and sex perverts out there that would have an easier time with a government/family situation to prey on.
Oh dear.

Forcibly removing children from their parents isn't a "Communist" idea, and the practice has often been employed on a wide scale throughout human history in contexts of forced assimilation into some new polity, tribe, nation, or other such community. For instance, as you probably know, in both the US and Canada in the 19th century, Native American/Aboriginal children were forcibly separated from their parents en masse and removed to 'Indian boarding schools' where they were assigned new names, forbidden to speak their native languages, required to attend church services, and made to work on local farms and factories during breaks, in the name of properly equipping and 'civilizing' them to become productive citizens of their countries.

At any rate, in the Republic, Plato recommends the sharing of children (and wives, and property) for the elite 'guardian' class only, to reinforce their sense of community as a collective devoted entirely to serving the greater good of the polis' other inhabitants, who of course play no role in political decision-making as they would in a democracy--which he explicitly disdains as the nightmare of what 'rule by the poor' would look like: "And then democracy comes into being after the poor have conquered their opponents, slaughtering some and banishing some, while to the remainder they give an equal share of freedom and power".
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When it comes to religion conservatives could see how it could be a force to teach the population self-discipline. The problem though was that much of this relates to philosophy as opposed to a scientific view of the universe that was provable. In fact the problem we have now is that people abandoned most religions (because they are scientifically unproven or plainly proven wrong on their view of the origin of the universe and our place in it) but where is a secular code of conduct that all people can agree on to create self-discipline? This is why many people revert to hedonism, narcissism, nihlism, or they continue traditional religions to get what they feel they need.
...the necessity of Noble Lies, another ostensibly 'conservative' idea associated with Plato.

(again, I'm largely being facetious here)
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I would also like to add that in ancient times the kind of work that men had to do made it more likely that women would gather and raise children than do what the men did on most occasions. Now that we have much more technology to save labor women have many more opportunities now for employment that wouldn't have been available at the time of Aristotle. And with women earning a living they can own capital and have much more of a stake and influence in politics than just relying on men for income.
Such as? Are you referring to agricultural work? (classical Greece being primarily an agricultural society, even in prosperous city-states like Athens) In traditional agricultural societies, women (free or otherwise) are generally out working the fields all day right alongside the men; their workplaces and homes are one and the same. Domestic technology advancements and the emergence of paid childcare systems and universal schooling (despite shrinking families, which mean fewer hands to help with childcare at home) likely have as much or more to do with increased employment oportunities for women as changes in the job market per se.

In any case, women in classical Athens (and classical Greece in general) lacked property rights and other contractual rights which might have allowed them to personally directly profit from their labor. Most actual citizens of classical Athens were landholding men, and field slaves were the backbone of their labor force; free artisans and merchants obviously existed too, though this type of work was stigmatized.
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Yeah and how did people get convinced? Evidence showed that women and blacks could be as intelligent as men. It was demonstratable. We shouldn't change things because we feel we should. We should change things because it can be proven.
This simply isn't true; the Civil Rights Movement wasn't a public education campaign, and scientific studies on the intelligence of African-Americans weren't pivotal at all to its progress. The Atlantic slave trade wasn't based on 'scientific' arguments either, nor even on 'traditional' views about the nature of Africans, as there really weren't any to speak of until financial opportunity came knocking. You're equating moral-philosophical problems with scientific ones, and that just doesn't work; some questions simply can't be answered in a laboratory, and vice versa.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:28 PM   #523
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Yes, I agree with all of this, I just don't agree with your theory that it came about from "scientific process". I don't think you quite understand the scientific process.
When I mean scientific, I mean a rational process that has evidence to back up the claims.

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I have tried for 34 years of my life to understand social conservatives, and I simply cannot. They talk about "freedom" but then try and deny folks that are different from them rights. They talk about love and forgiveness but condemn and judge every chance they can. They have been on the wrong side of every single social movenment in this country's history. How can they be so wrong? I will never understand. So yes, I've tried but you guys haven't given me much to work with...
Understand dualism and you will understand lots of Judeo-Christian ethics. God creates Adam and Eve but also creates a snake. Why? Do we need Satan?

Some people will not agree with you no matter what. People who are believers will be afraid of going to hell. Now I believe hell is a mental projection based on no evidence so when real evidence shows up to me it becomes compelling. You're just going to have to be patient. New generations won't see as much fuss unless a wave of Christian fundamentalism takes over the country.

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Don't even try to make that comparison. You should honestly be ashamed of some of the things you say in here...
Look I'm not a politically correct person. The drama is pointless. Jesus was a martyr and so was Martin Luther King. I was simply stating that the left has crimes on its hand and you finding the process we have as too slow sounded authoritarian to me. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:37 PM   #524
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That scientific method is sure doing wonders for conservative creationists. We've got them convinced!!
Of course, and revolutionary Marxists are truly representative of all liberal opinion!!!
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Old 06-18-2009, 08:39 PM   #525
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Of course, and revolutionary Marxists are truly representative of all liberal opinion!!!
I don't think they are, but I'm not the one making these bombastic theories that purpleoscar is presenting.
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