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Old 06-17-2009, 04:50 PM   #421
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It's so funny that the conservative men keep telling the FYM women what's what and how we think and what we thought and how we're thinking now.
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Because you never do that, do you martha?
You forgot the first part.
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:52 PM   #422
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Then they hated her because she made a good salary (kind of bizarre seeing as how she doesn't make THAT much money).
Purely because this earnings issue seems very, very important to you, I have to point out that her lifetime earnings were most likely higher, or at least on a par with, Obama, before he wrote his book.

As it's, you know, such a big deal......
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:55 PM   #423
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I agree with you here, but I don't think it's relevant to whether or not Letterman's comments were sexist and/or unduly tasteless.
I don't really think it's relevant to Letterman's comments, either. I wasn't making a value judgment about his "joke" in this statement, I was trying to explain my view of why this might happen in general, and more specifically, to Palin and her family.

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Neither she nor her daughter (I mean Bristol Palin here) chose to have her daughter's pregnancy become a major media story, however inevitable the realities of presidential campaign coverage might be said to have made that outcome. And being a 'family values icon' (or the child of one) isn't a worthy justification for that kind of invasiveness--there's a reason why hounding or smearing children of public figures is generally considered beyond the 'MSM' pale, and it's not meant to be contingent on their parents' convictions or behavior.
No, they probably didn't choose to make it a major part of her campaign, but given the media and entertainment climate in our society (not saying it's right, just that this is the way it is), coupled with the fact that, as you said, a family values candidate with a pregnant teen was running for a very high profile position, I think that they easily could have predicted that her family life would be subject to a higher degree of scrutiny. Is there anything she could have done to combat this sort of invasion into her family life? I'm not sure. Maybe if she'd had something more substantive to talk about policy-wise, the media may have left her family alone after their initial fascination. I certainly don't think locking up the pregnant teen and keeping her away from the cameras is the answer, but surely there must have been something more that could have been done to convey that her family was off limits. I do know she talked about them an awful lot, more than any other candidate I can recall.

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Besides, this wasn't a case of savagely brilliant humor artfully teasing out some complex point about the role of gender and motherhood in campaign propaganda; it was a garden-variety cheap shot of the tried-and-true "Your [female relative] is a slut" genre. Which of course is one classic form of exploiting sexism to attack someone--typically someone disliked for reasons having little or nothing to do with said relative's sexual behavior. It is true, as you say, that Bristol Palin has since become somewhat of an independently 'famous' figure, but realistically, whatever admiration or contempt she inspires remains heavily bound up in who her mother is.
It's certainly not highbrow humour, I agree. The fact is though, late night monologues are full of the type of humour that exploits people's weaknesses and foibles. Remember when the Bush twins were known as raging drunks? While certainly not sexual in nature, there were still a lot of jokes make about them, and they were underage at the time. Eventually that faded and nothing more was said about them. Again, I'm not saying it's right, just that it is.

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I do agree that some aspects of Palin's response--the rhetoric of 'joking about rape,' which she knows full well effectively implies finding actual violent sexual assaults funny, or calling Letterman 'perverted,' as if one need be psychologically disturbed to be capable of sexism or crudeness--came across as overwrought, disingenuous, or both; reading those particular character attributes into his 'joke' simply wasn't credible, and there was plenty enough to object to without resorting to that.
It's this kind of behaviour that makes her seem like an opportunist. Anything for another 15 minutes in the spotlight.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:01 PM   #424
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It's well-known that Obama did poor with white women.


you sure about that?
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:03 PM   #425
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I am not singling you out as the enemy.

But, it seems many of Palin's detractors have said she was the reason McCain lost.


I am convinced that she added millions of votes to the ticket.

Romney, Huckabee, Giuliani on the ticket would have seen a much larger Obama margin than just 7 %.

I think she added some ultra right that didn't care about her experience or abilities as a leader, but then took away a lot of independents.

But that's still not my point, fguy seemed to think every single one of those votes was a ringing endorcement for HER, and I highly doubt that.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:05 PM   #426
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She also was nervous in interviews. I agreed with her on:

- Supporting more troops in Afghanistan
- Balanced budgets and tax reform
- Israel
- Drilling for oil in ANWR and increasing nuclear power capacity
- Spending freeze

So when the liberals were attacking her it seemed exagerrated and based on presentation and what consitutes a real woman leader and the clothes she wore.


this is such garbage, i'm sorry. you agree because she was reciting GOP talking points, and she was nervous because she'd had so little time to study.

Plain had absolutely NO RECORD AT ALL of having any sort of position on Israel or Afghanistan prior to McCain picking her for VP. she was a literal blank slate when it came to foreign policy, and she had no demonstrated interest in it until it became politically necessary to have it.

her presentation was poor because she was POORLY PREPARED not because she was "nervous" or whatever pathetic excuses conservative men offer up because they find her attractive.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:09 PM   #427
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No, they probably didn't choose to make it a major part of her campaign, but given the media and entertainment climate in our society (not saying it's right, just that this is the way it is), coupled with the fact that, as you said, a family values candidate with a pregnant teen was running for a very high profile position, I think that they easily could have predicted that her family life would be subject to a higher degree of scrutiny.

i actually disagree.

Palin was a piece of red meat thrown to the anti-abortion base -- a woman who chose to take her child to term despite him having D.S., and a pregnant teenager who likewise had her baby. it was a big family, too.

all of this is more proof of the fact that Palin is an empty suit with absolutely no substance whatsoever beyond image, and the fact that she has made this tabloid Letterman nonsense into a means of getting back into the news cycle is further proof of the fact that Sarah Palin belongs on a reality show and not in elected office.

her appeal to the base was based upon looks and lifestyle and her seeming "embodiment" of the anti-abortion ethos.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:10 PM   #428
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As it's, you know, such a big deal......
Context, context, context you always seem to have an issue with it, she was responding to Oscars far out theories that he pulled out of his ass and in his theory her wealth was at the core of it.

Follow along.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:13 PM   #429
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I think she added some ultra right that didn't care about her experience or abilities as a leader, but then took away a lot of independents.

But that's still not my point, fguy seemed to think every single one of those votes was a ringing endorcement for HER, and I highly doubt that.
On balance I thought Obama/Biden were the better team, but a 6% margin of victory for them just a few weeks after the disastrous collapse of Lehmann and collapsing financial markets in general together wit plenty of media gaffes and negative stories involving Palin - some of her own making due to political naivete, granted - was hardly the ringing repudiation of McCain/Palin that some here predicted. By historical standards, the result was relatively close. If the election had occured two months earlier, who knows.

Clearly, however, the figures are wrong, because we have already been informed that Palin is no damn good because:

(1) Women (all women) are embarassed by her as they think she's thick stupid.
(2) She doesn't earn as much as those Wall Street type that caused the collapses I already mentioned.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #430
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I think he showed extremely poor taste.


progress.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:14 PM   #431
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btw, i fully hope that Palin wins the '12 GOP nomination.

particularly when Biden retires and HRC takes the VP slot, Obama won't have to spend any time campaigning and he'll be able to just show up for a couple of debates and that will be that.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:17 PM   #432
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On balance I thought Obama/Biden were the better team, but a 6% margin of victory for them just a few weeks after the disastrous collapse of Lehmann and collapsing financial markets in general together wit plenty of media gaffes and negative stories involving Palin -

this is another misunderstanding that's been peddled by the Right to explain McCain's trouncing (by a black man, no less) and it's been offered up in here by people like STING.

the McCain/Palin decline and the Obama rise started before the Lehman collapse, and the further rise by Obama was augmented by McCain's whole "i'm going to suspend my campaign" rhetoric that gave off the very accurate impression that he was erratic and out-of-touch.

the financial crisis was an opportunity for both candidates, one aced it and the other ran around like grandpa Walnuts after a few glasses of Scotch.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:21 PM   #433
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Clearly, however, the figures are wrong, because we have already been informed that Palin is no damn good because:

(1) Women (all women) are embarassed by her as they think she's thick stupid.
(2) She doesn't earn as much as those Wall Street type that caused the collapses I already mentioned.

Neither one of these were stated, and like I said before you need to talk to Oscar about why her earnings were important.
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:25 PM   #434
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i actually disagree.

Palin was a piece of red meat thrown to the anti-abortion base -- a woman who chose to take her child to term despite him having D.S., and a pregnant teenager who likewise had her baby. it was a big family, too.

all of this is more proof of the fact that Palin is an empty suit with absolutely no substance whatsoever beyond image, and the fact that she has made this tabloid Letterman nonsense into a means of getting back into the news cycle is further proof of the fact that Sarah Palin belongs on a reality show and not in elected office.

her appeal to the base was based upon looks and lifestyle and her seeming "embodiment" of the anti-abortion ethos.
Even if for the sake of argument, that is true, doesn't the fact that the Obama/Biden margin of victory was not that high show that the anti-abortion base is far larger in the US in general than is represented, for example, here on FYM?

Also, in relation to looks....personally, I don't really fancy her at all - but look at the telegenic male Democrat candidates that have been selected in various elections. And Hillary is certainly not bad looking. Looks are going to be a factor in a television based culture - perhaps it's why the likes of Kucinch never gains traction. In any case, it seems silly to suggest it's only conservatives that vote partly based on looks and appearance. It couldn't be that liberals constantly raising her looks against her is an example of latent misogyny, now, could it?
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Old 06-17-2009, 05:31 PM   #435
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this is another misunderstanding that's been peddled by the Right to explain McCain's trouncing (by a black man, no less) and it's been offered up in here by people like STING.

the McCain/Palin decline and the Obama rise started before the Lehman collapse, and the further rise by Obama was augmented by McCain's whole "i'm going to suspend my campaign" rhetoric that gave off the very accurate impression that he was erratic and out-of-touch.

the financial crisis was an opportunity for both candidates, one aced it and the other ran around like grandpa Walnuts after a few glasses of Scotch.
I remember STING2 raising the point - it's one of the few occasions I agreed with him.

In relation to your your last point, that does not make sense, as the financial crisis happened on a Republican president's watch, so immediately handed the opportunity to the Democratic candidate.
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