If one's race truly isn't an issue....

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we're on our way to finally understanding and accepting each other. Obama is a symbol of hope.

The question that always sits in my mind is to become a stronger society, should we eliminate or ignore our differences because they are or were once (perceived as) negative or somehow threatening or should we celebrate how our differences can constructively add value to the whole mix?

Part of what makes Obama so appealing when he speaks publicly is that his empathy is so genuine. In one person he embodies the "melting pot" and you also get a sense that his whole is much greater than the sum of the different parts of his background and experience.

For African Americans it's a monumental moment of recognition and acceptance and for white Americans it represents a monumental shift in their collective capacity to understand and accept others. Both are worthy of one helluva party!

So we hope Obama will bring understanding and acceptance through leveraging different perspectives into the policies of the White House and I also hope that won't be the basis of blaming him for necessary decisions that will be unpopular.
 
my larger view keeps me from recognizing why today would be more meaningful to the black community.

It's not your "larger view," whatever that is. It's your white skin.

Really, you didn't listen to the many black Americans being interviewed? You didn't read about their reactions and experiences in your local newspaper? You haven't read books recounting the harrowing experience of being black in America?

I'm white, and I would never assume that because I don't experience racism, nor tolerate it in myself, family, and friends, that it's all over and that Obama's election has somehow healed and exonerated this country for 400 years of racism.

Why would you do such a thing?
 
It always irks me when people say things like "white black or purple." You never (or at least i"ve never) heard black folks say this kind of thing. There are no purple people. It oversimplifies the very messy racial issues in this country. The ugliest racial issues in America are specifically between whites and blacks--the only similar parallel I can think of elsewhere is in South Africa--and it has everything to do the with history of these two grops in America. The kinds of quote "normal" racism I see in other places pale in comparison to the deep-rooted ugliness of black-white racism in the U.S. Purple ain't got nothing to do with it.

Haaa. I have to laugh that you caught me on this one. Absolutely. Guilty as charged.

Good morning, by the way. I woke up feeling a little tired and reluctant to come back in here to see what had transpired since I left. Not because of anyone one of you who responded but because it is a huge issue that can't be tackled in one night or with one conversation.

I think there is a balance between celebrating the differences in our race and culture but also realizing that at the end of the day race doesn't matter and the white person is buried next to the black person - both lives were equally as important. And I won't and can't deny anyone the right to celebrate this event and now that I'm rested I see where some of my arguments were pretty thick headed. But please also understand MY heart, nonetheless. The issue of race won't go away unless we let it.
 
It's not your "larger view," whatever that is. It's your white skin.

Really, you didn't listen to the many black Americans being interviewed? You didn't read about their reactions and experiences in your local newspaper? You haven't read books recounting the harrowing experience of being black in America?

I'm white, and I would never assume that because I don't experience racism, nor tolerate it in myself, family, and friends, that it's all over and that Obama's election has somehow healed and exonerated this country for 400 years of racism.

Why would you do such a thing?

I think you're missing my point, or I'm sure you'll think I'm missing yours. The larger view is that his being black won't help him fix our problems in this country. Some are choosing to only look at this event through a racial lense and I think it's wrong. In four years, and we're worse off or better off...how did his being black contribute to this? That is the larger picture I'm talking about. That larger picture is that his race doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things especially since it's not accurate to assume, to put it in your words that "Obama's election has somehow healed and exonerated this country for 400 years of racism."

I must say that everytime I respond to you in particular I have to fight being on the defensive. I'm not going to allow you to wag your self-righteous finger at me. I don't really give a flip what books you've read. Racism exists because we keep allowing it to. When will it stop?
 
The larger view is that his being black won't help him fix our problems in this country. Some are choosing to only look at this event through a racial lense and I think it's wrong. In four years, and we're worse off or better off...how did his being black contribute to this?
Just when I think you're getting it, you come back with this...

No one is saying this!

Why is this so hard for you to understand that this is someone we elected AND he happens to be black which is a groundbreaking historical event in America. Just like the first woman will be someday...

Racism exists because we keep allowing it to. When will it stop?

I think your ignoring the significance of yesterday is part of what keeps racism alive.
 
Some are choosing to only look at this event through a racial lense and I think it's wrong.

Personally, I think however someone else votes is really their prerogative. We're not all going to agree on who to vote FOR, so why would we all agree on HOW we vote? I know someone who is white, priveleged, never really lived outside the bubble, an active member of a young Republican group, and she stated outright one day that she was voting for Barack Obama because she could not give up the chance to vote for the first African American president of the united states. It's all a matter of values. To someone like her, the race issue IS more important than issues like abortion, taxes, etc. That's her choice.

You admittedly aren't looking at anything through a racial lens and maybe other people think that is wrong. The thing is, perception is reality whether it should be or not. That's just the way it is.



Racism exists because we keep allowing it to. When will it stop?

Quite a different tune....

I truly believe racism in the mainstream to be dead and it's obvioius to me that we are all equal and have been treated equally for years, white, black, whatever.
 
The larger view is that his being black won't help him fix our problems in this country.
No shit. Who has said it will?


Some are choosing to only look at this event through a racial lense and I think it's wrong.
You're looking at it this way, whether you'll admit it to yourself or not. And, how kind of you to tell joyous Americans that their joy is wrong.


That larger picture is that his race doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things
I think others have answered this already.


I must say that everytime I respond to you in particular I have to fight being on the defensive.
You should be. By your own admission, you like to stir shit under the guise of "asking tough questions." Then, when you get called out on your answers, you change your mind and wording. You've been doing that all through this thread.

I'm not going to allow you to wag your self-righteous finger at me.
That's the pot calling the kettle...purple.


Racism exists because we keep allowing it to. When will it stop?
I thought you said racism was dead in the mainstream? Racism will exist as long as white guys keep thinking that a black president doesn't matter, as long as white guys insist that racism is dead, as long as black men are killed by white cops, etc.
 
So we shouldn't celebrate Jackie Robinson, Rosa Parks, Hattie McDaniel-and so on and so on? Their race was an issue, that's the point.

It's one day to celebrate that he is the first, what's wrong with that? Now we will judge him on the content of his character. Not that we didn't previously.
 
"What I think I will plead to is a different perspective on some of the racial issues that we face in the sense that I come at it with the assumption that there is racial prejudice in our society, that we do continue to carry the historical legacy of Jim Crow and slavery. We've never fully addressed that. It manifests itself in much higher rates of poverty and violence and lack of educational achievement in minority communities. But I know in my heart that there is a core decency to the American people, and that decency can be tapped. I think America is at the point now where if a white person has the time to get to know who you are, that they are willing on average to look beyond race and judge you as an individual. That doesn't mean that they've stopped making snap judgments. It doesn't mean that before I was Barack Obama, and I was just Barack Obama, that if I got into an elevator, a woman might not clutch her purse a little tighter. Or if I'm walking down the street, that you might not hear some clicks of doors locking, right. I mean, there's still a host of stereotypes that I think a lot of people are operating under. But I think if they have time to get to know you, they will judge you as they would judge anybody else, and I think that's enormous progress. We've made progress. Yes, things are better. But better is not good enough. And we've still got a long way to go."


60 Minutes, Feb 07

He also said on 60 Minutes that he's always black when he's hailing a cab. That's one reason that race still matters.
 
U2isthebest, you know I :heart: you, but I'm really surprised by this statement. Should we just chalk it up to "I'm allowed to put down 'my people' but you can't?" :shrug:

Well, it was hyperbole. It was a generalization of large group of people many of whom are racist. Clearly, yolland, is an exception. She's brilliant, and I've learned a lot of from her posts. I apologize if I've offended her. I would hope she knows I have nothing but respect for her. I'm sorry if my statement is offensive, and I definitely should have phrased it much differently. However, I stand by my assertion that people who have strong feelings of racism (or any sort of discriminatory feelings based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic background etc.), lack intelligence. There is no way that any truly intelligent human being could believe that something like the color of one's skin makes them inferior to another person or group of people. I'm not even necessarily talking about people that lack education. There are people with Ph.D's that are horribly racist, and people who have an 8th grade education that aren't. Although, I think it's hard to dispute that lack of education generally makes it more likely for one to hold on to feelings of racism or discrimination. It's also not too presumptive to say that there are a lot of people, especially in the South, who were born into unfortunate socioeconomic circumstances and generations of racism and who haven't had the chance to experience a broader education and view of the world that would lead them to re-examine what they've been taught about race. Once one becomes an adult, though, I don't think there's any excuse to hold onto racist feelings. One may not be be able to get a world-class education and have the experiences that would allow them to be in situations that might lead to a questioning of the issues. However, introspection is free, questioning one's long-held beliefs, and ones' value system is free, and there is no excuse for any of us to not do that. As I've said, I've known far too many racists in my own family, (my paternal grandmother is strongly against racism, but her side of the family in Indiana is extremely racist. My maternal grandfather was very racist.) to sit idly by and try to be understanding. It makes me too angry, and anyone who makes racist statements around me regrets it quickly. That's the one time that I don't try and practice tolerance or respect. So to sum up, I am sorry about the content of the statement I've made, but not about the point I was trying to make (albeit, in a poor way)
 
Because, America has had a long history of racism. To answer the question, of the original poster. Yes, things have gotten better over the past couple of decades. But, folks my parents ages do remember, for example, when black folks couldn't eat in the same dinners, as their white counter parts. The KKK was still terrorizing any person of color, sometimes even Catholics and Jews. As these groups where more opposed to the Klan. African Americans were being lynched from tree branches, even until the first half of the twentieth century. So, America and not just those of African heritage, are proud to move forward and to make this a better country for all of it's citizens. We feel that President Obama can help to heal this terrible past.
 
Judge Obama on Performance Alone - WSJ.com

Yet there is fear, especially among black people, that criticism of him or any of his failures might be twisted into evidence that people of color cannot effectively lead. That amounts to wasting time and energy reacting to hateful stereotypes. It also leads to treating all criticism of Mr. Obama, whether legitimate, wrong-headed or even mean-spirited, as racist. This is patronizing. Worse, it carries an implicit presumption of inferiority. Every American president must be held to the highest standard. No president of any color should be given a free pass for screw-ups, lies or failure to keep a promise.
 
Of course we should judge Obama on performance alone...

But that being said, that article is full of shit in a lot of areas and Juan Williams has had a little bit of his own controversy in his lifetime regarding race.
 
I thought you said racism was dead in the mainstream? Racism will exist as long as white guys keep thinking that a black president doesn't matter, as long as white guys insist that racism is dead, as long as black men are killed by white cops, etc.

margaret_sanger_kkk.jpg
 
Wasn't this a reference to some 60's era saying or something. Everybody seemed to laugh along knowingly when he said this?
:yes: It's from what we always called the Get Back Blues. I'm not sure whose song it is or if it even has any one author, and that might not be the 'real' title either, but yeah, Lowery opened his benediction by quoting Lift Every Voice And Sing then closed it by quoting the Get Back Blues. Both songs you heard a lot during the Civil Rights Movement, which Lowery was one of the heroes of, he led the Montgomery bus boycott and was one of the Selma march leaders. Now I want you to tell me, / Brother what you gonna do about old Jim Crow? / Now if you was white, should be all right / If you was brown, could stick around / But if you black, mmm brother, get back get back... So he tinkered with it a little obviously, and at worst I could say it maybe came off a touch schlocky (really now, 'mellow yellow'?), but it was all so much a part of the historic weight of the moment--this 87-year-old civil rights veteran in the winter of his life, standing on the Washington Mall with well over a million Americans of every color and creed gathered around in the freezing cold, having survived long enough to witness the day as a younger black man of a different generation, standing straight and proud and grave and humbled all at once, accepts before everyone the awesome responsibility of having been the one chosen to lead us forward through some very difficult times. That was a huge moment, it will live on in history as a huge moment, even as said difficulties press right on and doubtless no one present, least of all Obama, forgot for an instant they were there.
So does the fear that the more and more
the "other" is included, the more we will be excluded. That there is not enough to go around.
For African Americans it's a monumental moment of recognition and acceptance and for white Americans it represents a monumental shift in their collective capacity to understand and accept others. Both are worthy of one helluva party!
I think these posts get to the heart of it. Recognizing what a wonderful thing it is that this particular door has now been opened to African-Americans, and the potential the highly visible office it comes with has to help further open people's eyes to the potential in everyone...yes of course that also means recognizing why it's taken so long for this to happen--this isn't just about Barack Obama, it's about all of us. And that's something to celebrate! It's not something for anyone to feel defensive or slighted or suspicious over. Justice isn't about helpless victims and irredeemable oppressors and taking sides 'against' people, it's a much bigger dream than that, it's human beings recognizing each other and understanding where each other are coming from and working together to build the kind of society that won't be forgetful of anyone's humanity. But you don't get there by meditating abstractly on how all people are really the same underneath etc. etc., you have to get out there and listen and act and interact and be willing to take a little resentment or defensiveness on the chin sometimes and still keep going. And to have respect for community and how much that means to people, too--how much it hurts when people whose experiences one can really relate to are suffering, how exhilarating it feels when something wonderful for the community happens--without feeling jealous on account of the ties you also share with them. Maybe this is part of the issue; that there isn't a 'white community' in this country in the way there is a black or a gay or a Latino community, and that sometimes this absence is wrongly assumed to be a symptom of enlightenment or progress or just in general a 'way any reasonable person ought to be', when the truth is there never was any such community to begin with, because in this country white people---qua white people, anyhow--have never had to put aside their differences and organize collectively in the face of a common set of problems. Not that a shared legacy of adversities is all there is to a community, it's often also an affinity for a distinct subculture and all that, but it's the legacy of adversities part that makes these issues charged.
However, I stand by my assertion that people who have strong feelings of racism (or any sort of discriminatory feelings based on gender, religion, sexual orientation, socioeconomic background etc.), lack intelligence. There is no way that any truly intelligent human being could believe that something like the color of one's skin makes them inferior to another person or group of people. I'm not even necessarily talking about people that lack education. There are people with Ph.D's that are horribly racist, and people who have an 8th grade education that aren't. Although, I think it's hard to dispute that lack of education generally makes it more likely for one to hold on to feelings of racism or discrimination. It's also not too presumptive to say that there are a lot of people, especially in the South, who were born into unfortunate socioeconomic circumstances and generations of racism and who haven't had the chance to experience a broader education and view of the world that would lead them to re-examine what they've been taught about race. Once one becomes an adult, though, I don't think there's any excuse to hold onto racist feelings.
Well, I certainly agree with that last part. I don't really agree that intelligence, as in IQ, has much to do with it though. Racism isn't primarily an intellectual proposition, it's a socially and psychologically ingrained habit of mind where received negative assumptions about some collective a person belongs to dominate your perceptions of them, whether you consciously believe those assumptions or not. You can intellectualize your way out of that habit to a point, and yeah education can be a big help with that, but to finish the job you'll have to redirect some of your emotional allegiances too, which is really not something introspection or critical thinking can do for you. And the more segregated your lifestyle and your community is, the harder that's going to be to do. Simply recoiling at people in your own community who are overtly racist isn't enough.

Concerning the role of regional histories specifically in this, I'll just add that when you routinely choose the most stereotypically, (supposedly) familiar and glaring examples of racism in order to illustrate your point, you run the risk of playing into the hands of people who are inclined to dismiss all claims that they've got some blind spots of their own to address, because after all "I'm obviously not some inbred, coarse, stupid, violent trash 'like those people down there' and how dare you suggest I am."
 
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Of course we should judge Obama on performance alone...

But that being said, that article is full of shit in a lot of areas and Juan Williams has had a little bit of his own controversy in his lifetime regarding race.

Yeah there's some sexism in the background but not much different that Billy boy. :wink:
 
ylimeu2, I actually liked your original response best of all. Being able to appreciate the events of today, without perhaps, truly understanding every aspect of it. My point in responding the way I did to Martha was only to say I have talked with people and have been out of "the bubble" for a while and in doing so fell in to the usual problem with these types of conversations - that they inevitably become about us...what I mean by that is we lose focus and then begin to judge each other and yes, I'm just as guilty. I should have perhaps rephrased my original question to say, at what point do we say that race is no longer in issue....and can we as long as it is constantly being made an issue? Racists will always be among us...but when do we as a nation say, "The wounds are healed. It's not an issue. I'm American. I'm human. Nothing more and nothing less."? The sensationalists on the news, for instance, won't allow it. It's unfortuneate. Agree or disagree?

I don't come here a lot these days, so pardon my late response.

I disagree. The sensationalism will pass and in time, I think people will stop calling attention to it and simply accept it. But, you are right, it is there. But, the media blows everything out of proportion. This is where it is up to us, as individuals, to wade through the BS and decide for ourselves.

I think Obama will bring about healing the "wounds". He gives people hope for many, many different things. And healing those wounds is among those hopes. Exposure to things is the best teacher. And seeing him in office may very well bring people around to realizing that the color of his skin doesn't matter at all.

Racism is still very, very much alive in this country. People have been oppressed for far too long, while others have lived in ignorance for far too long. I really do believe Obama will inspire both the oppressed and the oppressors. My own grandmother made the comment once that she doesn't like black people "because they smell". And at 89 years old, she is finally starting to question the ideas she was raised with. I think we will see more of that in the years to come. I'm not naive enough to think racism will go away completely, but I think it is on its way out.
 
Obama's only half black. His mother is white and his father really wasn't around for him, so you could almost say that he was raised "white".

But, I believe it's tougher to be bi-racial in the US then it is to even be black because then you have two races who might have a tough time accepting you.

For most of the 232 years of America's existence, black Americans haven't exactly been treated the greatest, so it is kind of important that a person of color be elected president of the US.
 
that "catching a cab" thing

really is rather silly

if that is the only time Obama is reminded he is a black man

:shrug:



i suppose these are things you don't have to worry about.

how do you think i feel at the hyper-capitalistic orgy of heterosexuality we call Valentine's Day?

a bit like a Jew at Christmas, perhaps.
 
i suppose these are things you don't have to worry about.

how do you think i feel at the hyper-capitalistic orgy of heterosexuality we call Valentine's Day?

a bit like a Jew at Christmas, perhaps.

you should enjoy V Day
you have a boyfriend.

most of my Jewish friends seem to rather enjoy Christmas


as for not being picked up by a cab?

well, most cabbies these days won't pick up a person with a dog, even seeing-eye, and many will not pick a person with liquor :shrug:

I'd say Obama had a much different life experience than Michelle growing up on the eastside? of Chicago.
 
you should enjoy V Day
you have a boyfriend.


it's hard to find a gay valentine's day card. :(

so we usually buy either a super-religious card or maybe a barbie or tinkerbell card. and then we get Popeye's and eat chocolate. because V-Day is a made-up holiday.


well, most cabbies these days won't pick up a person with a dog, even seeing-eye, and many will not pick a person with liquor :shrug:


most cabbies seem really eager to pick me up. i wonder why.


I'd say Obama had a much different life experience than Michelle growing up on the eastside? of Chicago.


different experience, yes, but you really should read Dreams From My Father. it's actually quite good, and i can't think that being cosmetically african-american yet having a white mother and white grandparents and a half-asian sister didn't feed into his racial self-understanding.

what i do think is important here is that while it is true that Barack, unlike Michelle, is not a descendant of slaves, he was born into a world where he was affected by that historical residue, and had no choice about that.
 
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