If one's race truly isn't an issue....

[martha]

first, I think you have been posting in here long enough to have seen me post more than once that I believe race to be towards the top of the list of things that are still a problem in this country.

I should, you're right, but you can be hard to read at times.

second, I did find it odd that u2best was making an argument against racism,
(having a bias against members of a race) by showing bias towards the citizens of Mississippi.

I understand.

 

[ylimeU2]

I'm proud to say that I don't see his race, I see him as a true leader and someone who is willing to put himself out there and bring about real change. But I grew up in a white middle class family and I have never experienced judgment based on the color of my skin.

So, when I hear people of different races talking about how inspiring it is to see him elected despite his race, when I hear vetrens of wars America has fought in being sent to the front lines to die first talking about how they never thought they would see this day, when I see a local boy on the news saying that Martin Luther King, Jr walked so that Obama could run, I am inclined to believe them...the ones who have faced judgement and hatred based on race, when they say it is still an issue.

I can't walk a mile in their shoes. Hell, I can't even take a step. I don't know, but I'll accept that it is important, even if I can't fully comprehend why.

 

[October1977]

Your wide-eyed insistence that race doesn't matter indicates that either that I'm right, you weren't paying attention, or you just like things happy and smiley.

Life isn't happy and smiley. I've seen the depths of hell in the eyes of the AIDS victim, blind from his illness, and I've wiped the tears of the transgendered on the streetcorner wondering how God views them. I've put my arm around the forgotten veteran addicted to drugs and I've given a piece of candy to some of the poorest kids in the nation, not to mention the world. Not to mention my own battles. My being white, and their being black, hispanic, vietnamese, white or other didn't exactly matter. What mattered is that I was paying attention to everything but their race. Those who care about race are those who can afford to care. But this isn't about me. The premise of the question is philosophical. Wasn't the civil rights struggle so that it wouldn't matter at all?

 

[ylimeU2]

Life isn't happy and smiley. I've seen the depths of hell in the eyes of the AIDS victim, blind from his illness, and I've wiped the tears of the transgendered on the streetcorner wondering how God views them. I've put my arm around the forgotten veteran addicted to drugs and I've given a piece of candy to some of the poorest kids in the nation, not to mention the world. Not to mention my own battles. My being white, and their being black, hispanic, vietnamese, white or other didn't exactly matter. What mattered is that I was paying attention to everything but their race. Those who care about race are those who can afford to care. But this isn't about me. The premise of the question is philosophical. The civil rights struggle - was it to become equal to or better than? If equal to than shouldn't that mean not bringing it up at all? If better than...well, that answers the question in itself.

It should...but it doesn't make it a fact. Do you have AIDS? Are you blind? Do you cry tears over your sexuality? Are you addicted to drugs? Are you so poor or have you ever been so poor that you couldn't afford food? Do you understand what it feels like to live with any of these situations? You can help, you can be compassionate, but to ignore that these people face prejudices and hatred because of what they face is almost just as bad as hating them for it.

Yes, it sucks, but it exists. Trying to deny it is just as bad as judging someone for it.

 

[phillyfan26]

I think you're confusing yourself.

Race is an issue. It's always been an issue, and it will probably be a decent amount of time more before it ceases to be an issue.

The point made over and over again is that it shouldn't be an issue. But it is, and everyone knows it. This is another step in the right direction, the right direction being the end of race as an issue. But we're not there yet, which is why Barack Obama's presidency is celebrated. Because it's a step towards a goal.

 

[October1977]

It should...but it doesn't make it a fact. Do you have AIDS? Are you blind? Do you cry tears over your sexuality? Are you addicted to drugs? Are you so poor or have you ever been so poor that you couldn't afford food? Do you understand what it feels like to live with any of these situations? You can help, you can be compassionate, but to ignore that these people face prejudices and hatred because of what they face is almost just as bad as hating them for it.

Yes, it sucks, but it exists. Trying to deny it is just as bad as judging someone for it.

ylimeu2, I actually liked your original response best of all. Being able to appreciate the events of today, without perhaps, truly understanding every aspect of it. My point in responding the way I did to Martha was only to say I have talked with people and have been out of "the bubble" for a while and in doing so fell in to the usual problem with these types of conversations - that they inevitably become about us...what I mean by that is we lose focus and then begin to judge each other and yes, I'm just as guilty. I should have perhaps rephrased my original question to say, at what point do we say that race is no longer in issue....and can we as long as it is constantly being made an issue? Racists will always be among us...but when do we as a nation say, "The wounds are healed. It's not an issue. I'm American. I'm human. Nothing more and nothing less."? The sensationalists on the news, for instance, won't allow it. It's unfortuneate. Agree or disagree?

 

[martha]

I should have perhaps rephrased my original question to say, at what point do we say that race is no longer in issue....and can we as long as it is constantly being made an issue? Racists will always be among us...but when do we as a nation say, "The wounds are healed. It's not an issue. I'm American. I'm human. Nothing more and nothing less."? The sensationalists on the news, for instance, won't allow it. It's unfortuneate. Agree or disagree?

This sounds much more like a real question that can be discussed, not the smug non-question that was originally asked.

 

[BVS]

Racism isn't dead. It isn't even dead in "mainstream" America. I could show you many of examples of racism in FYM, on talk shows, everyday life, etc...

There will always be racism, but until the day that it only exists in fringe elements, elements that will be rejected by all political sides and all walks of life, days like this WILL matter.

 

[yolland]

Could we maybe clarify what specific kinds of statements and actions have given the impressions of "sensationalism" and "bitterness against white people"?

 

[maycocksean]

Are there people in Mississippi that have an IQ over 35? If so, I'd like to meet one.

I'm waiting. . .just waiting for a certain mod who has one of the most brilliant minds of anyone I've encountered and who ALSO happens to be from Mississipi to come in here refute this shameful stereotype. . . But I don't think she will, as she has too much class to even take it seriously.

U2isthebest, you know I you, but I'm really surprised by this statement. Should we just chalk it up to "I'm allowed to put down 'my people' but you can't?"

This sounds much more like a real question that can be discussed, not the smug non-question that was originally asked.

I think we're being really unfair to October1977. This person, whoever he or she is, has got what 14 posts total all together on Interference, and has done nothing but behave in a respectful and sincere manner (even if the question they raised was perhaps poorly rephrased and awfully easy to refute). I don't think this poster is have ever been smug in anything they've said so far. There is nothing to indicate that this person is a troll or trying to stir shit up as far as I can tell.

And I'm a black man, so if anyone has the so-called "right" to be offended it would be. I just happen to believe there are good people out there with bad or misguided ideas. This seems to be the case here.

Come on, folks, don't scare October off before they've even had a chance to get started.

 

[maycocksean]

Could we maybe clarify what specific kinds of statements and actions have given the impressions of "sensationalism" and "bitterness against white people"?

See what I mean. Not a word.

talk about class.

 

[maycocksean]

In response to the original post, I find this kind of sentiment common among many of the white people that I know.

It's like, "Well, crap, I'M not racist. I don't see skin color--segregation, slavery etc is over now. Can't we just forget about all that now and pretedt like it never happened. We know it was wrong and bad but it wasn't met that had slaves or supported Jim Crow, so can we just not hear about any more and move on!"

What this viewpoint fails to recognize is that wounds, the consequences of systemic racism don't heal overnight, that it will be generations before we truly move past all of this. You see it's easy for white folks to "move on" because after all discrimination never really cost them anything, at least by comparison. People of color are still working out the costs of our history. Just listen to wildhoney's black students: "We got a nigga in the white house." This shit is complicated, people.

But the fact that a black man is now president shows that we are making progress towards the day when race truly won't matter, and that we are moving faster than we might have thought since most blacks (myself included) didn't think we'd see it in our lifetimes. It is definitely cause for celebration.

Right now, I live in a place where race (well, at least mine anyways) truly doesn't matter and I can't tell you how wonderful it is. I can also tell you that we have not yet reached that place in America (Obama's achievement not withstanding) and I dread having to move back there this summer for that reason.

 

[October1977]

This sounds much more like a real question that can be discussed, not the smug non-question that was originally asked.

I honestly don't know how to take you. Smug, huh? I may have revised my question but I still think the original stands.

Dr. Lowery ended his bendiction today with, "Lord...we ask you to help us work for that day when....white will embrace what is right." Are you telling me race wasn't brought to the forefront or that wasn't a racist, bitter comment? Are you telling me it wasn't made an issue? Are you telling me the fight for equality was fought and won so that we just continue to segregate people as "the first black...." anything? Isn't that a form of segregation? Is it smug for me to ask, "I thought it wasn't to be made an issue...so why are they making it an issue?" The responses for the most part have picked apart whether racism exists or not. Of course it does and I didn't mean to imply that it doesn't. But by and large, this is a country that would like to get past the struggles of the past. At what point will leadership (news, Senators, whoever it is in the public light) allow us to? I'm asking in general, not necessarily in defense.

 

[maycocksean]

^I believe I addressed your question, October1977. What say you?

 

[October1977]

Look, to be honest, I knew this would stir things up. I've read all of your responses and I don't feel offended or feel the need to defend myself. It's a sensitive subject to say the least. Just know that I personally choose to rid myself of those people who I know are racist. I know those people exist. I also know black people who are racists who I've chosen not to associate with as well. I'm not as naive as my attempt to be humble would lead you to believe. I'm very aware of the evil root of hatred in this country. And I believe those people need to be dealt with legally and if not in this life they will in the after. But, as you can tell, I communicate much better in person. If you were sitting in front of me over a beer or glass of tea it would have been a friendly conversation among friends...or future friends. It is a complicated issue. And while I truly appreciate the weight of today's events, the issue of race will never go away unless we ignore it. Period. I don't mean ignore the pain that was caused. I don't mean denying that wrong doings happened. I mean, no longer viewing anyone as anything but human.

The day after, November 5th, I'm sitting there at a gas station pumping gas and the black woman pumping gas across from me is staring me down, looking at me up and down, saying, "Obama!" with the most venomous look I've ever seen. I'm sitting there, thinking, "I shed a tear last night when Obama gave his exceptance speech. This lady doesn't know me at all. I was truly moved and I didn't even vote for the guy." The bottom line is, when will it end? That is my question. When will the price be paid for my ancestor's wrong doings? When will race not be important? Again, when the rubber meets the road, and you're standing in front of a person that is truly in need, or when you're truly in need like I've been many times...race doesn't matter. It truly doesn't. I just wish it would go away entirely. Does the economy care that this guy is black? Does the war in Iraq care? So, wouldn't we prefer that his qualifications to help strengthen this beautiful country of ours vindicate all of us rather than just his being black vindicate other blacks who still have pain in their hearts? Why segregate the meaning of this historic day? Why would it mean more to you as a black person than it does me as a white person?

Again, I say all of this with the deepest respect.

Edit: maycocksean, I read your post after responding here. I understand, even if not experienced firsthand, that the wounds won't heal overnight. I don't mean to be obtuse or naive. I feel like I'm going out on a limb to even admit in a forum that this question rolls around in my head. But we won't get anywhere unless we talk.

 

[Diemen]

Why would it mean more to you as a black person than it does me as a white person?

With respect, I think if you're honestly asking this question then you just don't have much perspective on what black people have been through in this country. I don't mean that as an insult in any way, but from my perspective (as a white man who has never had to endure the kind of systemic discrimination that blacks faced and in some cases continue to face) it is quite obvious why this day would mean more to a black person than it would to a white person. It's hard to put yourself in the position of someone who has faced things you've never had to face, I suppose.

I think Sean answered this part of it quite well, I think. What are your thoughts on his post?

Edited to add: I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss this in a constructive way.

 

[BonosSaint]

Race will be an issue, sex will be an issue, sexuality will be an issue, religion will be an issue, geography will be an issue, class will be an issue because we seem to have some inherent need for our differences to define us. We need "other" to make ourselves feel superior and if "other" comes in an easily identifiable package so much the better.

The differences and divisions lessen in time with each milestone reached (although sometimes they increase and become more blatant at first), but it is too easy to slide back. The fight for inclusion continues. So does the fear that the more and more
the "other" is included, the more we will be excluded. That there is not enough to go around.

 

[BVS]

Dr. Lowery ended his bendiction today with, "Lord...we ask you to help us work for that day when....white will embrace what is right." Are you telling me race wasn't brought to the forefront or that wasn't a racist, bitter comment?

Post the rest in context and then ask this question...

 

[BVS]

The day after, November 5th, I'm sitting there at a gas station pumping gas and the black woman pumping gas across from me is staring me down, looking at me up and down, saying, "Obama!" with the most venomous look I've ever seen. I'm sitting there, thinking, "I shed a tear last night when Obama gave his exceptance speech. This lady doesn't know me at all. I was truly moved and I didn't even vote for the guy." The bottom line is, when will it end? That is my question. When will the price be paid for my ancestor's wrong doings? When will race not be important? Again, when the rubber meets the road, and you're standing in front of a person that is truly in need, or when you're truly in need like I've been many times...race doesn't matter. It truly doesn't. I just wish it would go away entirely. Does the economy care that this guy is black? Does the war in Iraq care? So, wouldn't we prefer that his qualifications to help strengthen this beautiful country of ours vindicate all of us rather than just his being black vindicate other blacks who still have pain in their hearts? Why segregate the meaning of this historic day? Why would it mean more to you as a black person than it does me as a white person?

I agree with your sentiment that it shouldn't matter...

But this paragraph alone is loaded, and the fact that you can't see the historical relevance of today is sad...









I'm sure when the first woman in your family voted, the first in your family to attend college, or the first to find oppurtunity it was no big deal... right? Because you and everyone you know has always had everything?

 

[October1977]

With respect, I think if you're honestly asking this question then you just don't have much perspective on what black people have been through in this country. I don't mean that as an insult in any way, but from my perspective (as a white man who has never had to endure the kind of systemic discrimination that blacks faced and in some cases continue to face) it is quite obvious why this day would mean more to a black person than it would to a white person. It's hard to put yourself in the position of someone who has faced things you've never had to face, I suppose.

I think Sean answered this part of it quite well, I think. What are your thoughts on his post?

Edited to add: I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss this in a constructive way.

In response to you and Sean, what if his policies hurt our country or fix our country? Only time will tell of course. But what if? Will his being black contribute one way or another? How does a black president or white president or hispanic president help us? It doesn't really matter. Bush was white as the driven snow...and hurt us in a lot of ways. But I remember watching a late night roundtable discussion on television and they were discussing Bush's cabinet. And the subject of diversity came up and a white person brought up the names of Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell. The black person responded, "C'mon. They're as black as you are." And everyone laughed. That leads me to question, then what is black? And what made Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell not black enough? What is it that we're all looking for? A figure head? A puppet that looks like you? What difference should it make? What about the substance? Did Obama win because he was black? I don't know. But again, a lot of white people voted for him so it must have been because of his policies - which is good. But, my view of the larger forest is what drives me to ask this question. And it is probably true that my asset is also my liability - my larger view keeps me from recognizing why today would be more meaningful to the black community. I readily admit that. I'm just trying to add perspective and am looking for perspective.

EDIT: A portion of what I wrote could really be taken out of context. I'm sure the millions of other ethnic groups who voted for Obama voted for his policies as well. I didn't mean to imply they didn't.

 

[October1977]

Post the rest in context and then ask this question...

The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.

 

[BVS]

We aren't going to get anywhere if we never answer questions, just continue to ask more(that seem like they are skirting the subject), and use comedy bits as a source...

 

[BVS]

The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.

The rest of the last statement. It seems like you are picking and choosing here...

Why?

 

[October1977]

The rest of the last statement. It seems like you are picking and choosing here...

Why?

Not meaning too. I had a transcript sitting in front of me and this forum (or my computer) wouldn't allow me to copy and paste. So yeah, out of a little bit of fatigue I typed what I found offensive as a white person, but I've already stated I think the whole last paragraph was inappropriate. Just absolutely unnecessary.

To answer your other question, I do see the significance of this day. I write from the perspective of a white man, only ever seeing a white man in the Oval Office. Of course I am aware that fact alone might disqualifiy me from having an objective point of view as it pertains to the black community and what this means to them. But, I just fear getting swept up in the moment and the wrong man, whether he is white or black or purple, being in the Oval Office for the wrong reasons. I don't think race should be an issue at all when making that decision or celebrating a person obtaining that position. The fact that he is black, won't make him great or horrible.

EDIT: And to add to it, I think if celebrating is to be done, it should be after his policies are a success and the serious issues that face this country are dealt with.

 

[October1977]

We aren't going to get anywhere if we never answer questions, just continue to ask more(that seem like they are skirting the subject), and use comedy bits as a source...

I agree, every new response creates a new question in my mind that I use to try and explain my original question. It can get tidious and out of hand. I certainly don't mean to skirt the issue.

 

[BVS]

I don't think race should be an issue at all when making that decision or celebrating a person obtaining that position. The fact that he is black, won't make him great or horrible.

Well I think we should all procede under the assumption that he(or any canidate) was voted for because of his platform and not his race. For every canidate could be assumed differently. We could assume this one was voted for because of his looks, this one because of his religion, this one because he wore a cowboy hat...

BUT the celebration of and the voting for are two ENTIRELY different things...

Firsts are always celebrated. That is just a fact...

 

[October1977]

Well I think we should all procede under the assumption that he(or any canidate) was voted for because of his platform and not his race. For every canidate could be assumed differently. We could assume this one was voted for because of his looks, this one because of his religion, this one because he wore a cowboy hat...

BUT the celebration of and the voting for are two ENTIRELY different things...

Firsts are always celebrated. That is just a fact...

I can't disagree with hardly anyone who has responded including you. There were a few people I could tell were out there and there would be no constructive conversation to be had. But for the most part all is well. I often am judged for bringing these types of subjects up in small groups at work at lunch or at a gathering. I am the personification of "buzzkill". And I often take an opposing view, that I mysef don't even agree with, in an attempt to simply add perspective. Though this is my first time discussing something like this on a forum and I must say it takes practice. It's hard to keep the arguments linear and coherent without going off track. But all is well with me and you and everyone else here. This is a pretty cool place.

On that note, I'm going to bed. It's 1:39 am and I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight. Good night everyone. Until next time.

 

[maycocksean]

In response to you and Sean, what if his policies hurt our country or fix our country? Only time will tell of course. But what if? Will his being black contribute one way or another? How does a black president or white president or hispanic president help us?

No, but I don't know that those of our celebrating the first black president assume that his blackness will make him a better (or worse) president. It's just that his being president is in itself a milestone worthy of celebration, because it is one more way--and a very important way--in which African American citizens of this country are "just people" the same as anyone else. A black man could ride in the front of the bus, eat in any restuarant he chooses, and now. . .now a black man can be president--just like anyone else. That's pretty momentous and worthy of taking special note. (Now if only a black man can get a cab like everyone else ) The point is his quality as president is almost beside the point (I say almost, because as I noted in another thread, I think there are many of us in the black community who feel he'll need to be near-perfect because he'll be held to higher standard than a white president would. It's always been that way in this country for blacks entering a previously "white" field. You gotta be twice as good as the white guy to get the same level of respect).

The black person responded, "C'mon. They're as black as you are." And everyone laughed. That leads me to question, then what is black? And what made Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell not black enough? .

Yeah. . .this is black politics for you. I hate that whole "black enough" thing, maybe because I've never been black enough. I talk "white" and I love U2 for crying out loud. Things are complicated for African Americans. . .still very complicated.

The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.

Wasn't this a reference to some 60's era saying or something. Everybody seemed to laugh along knowingly when he said this?

But, I just fear getting swept up in the moment and the wrong man, whether he is white or black or purple, being in the Oval Office for the wrong reasons.

It always irks me when people say things like "white black or purple." You never (or at least i"ve never) heard black folks say this kind of thing. There are no purple people. It oversimplifies the very messy racial issues in this country. The ugliest racial issues in America are specifically between whites and blacks--the only similar parallel I can think of elsewhere is in South Africa--and it has everything to do the with history of these two grops in America. The kinds of quote "normal" racism I see in other places pale in comparison to the deep-rooted ugliness of black-white racism in the U.S. Purple ain't got nothing to do with it.

I can't disagree with hardly anyone who has responded including you. There were a few people I could tell were out there and there would be no constructive conversation to be had. But for the most part all is well. I often am judged for bringing these types of subjects up in small groups at work at lunch or at a gathering. I am the personification of "buzzkill". And I often take an opposing view, that I mysef don't even agree with, in an attempt to simply add perspective. Though this is my first time discussing something like this on a forum and I must say it takes practice. It's hard to keep the arguments linear and coherent without going off track. But all is well with me and you and everyone else here. This is a pretty cool place.

On that note, I'm going to bed. It's 1:39 am and I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight. Good night everyone. Until next time.

ahh, reminds me of my early days in FYM. Hope you stick around October1977. It can get pretty heated here sometimes, but in general I still find it " a pretty cool place."

 

[ShipOfFools]

It's important because it celebrates how far we've come. Even 40 years ago, people would have scoffed (or even worse, been offended) if you'd said that we'd have a black president. Obama becoming president means that finally racism is on it's way out. It's not there yet, because there are still a lot of racist people in this country, but we're on our way to finally understanding and accepting each other. Obama is a symbol of hope.

 

[phillyfan26]

EDIT: And to add to it, I think if celebrating is to be done, it should be after his policies are a success and the serious issues that face this country are dealt with.

But I think the celebration right now is more about the American people and their ability to take another step farther from racism towards equality by voting in a black man.