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Old 01-21-2009, 01:17 AM   #46
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Why would it mean more to you as a black person than it does me as a white person?
With respect, I think if you're honestly asking this question then you just don't have much perspective on what black people have been through in this country. I don't mean that as an insult in any way, but from my perspective (as a white man who has never had to endure the kind of systemic discrimination that blacks faced and in some cases continue to face) it is quite obvious why this day would mean more to a black person than it would to a white person. It's hard to put yourself in the position of someone who has faced things you've never had to face, I suppose.

I think Sean answered this part of it quite well, I think. What are your thoughts on his post?

Edited to add: I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss this in a constructive way.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:17 AM   #47
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Race will be an issue, sex will be an issue, sexuality will be an issue, religion will be an issue, geography will be an issue, class will be an issue because we seem to have some inherent need for our differences to define us. We need "other" to make ourselves feel superior and if "other" comes in an easily identifiable package so much the better.

The differences and divisions lessen in time with each milestone reached (although sometimes they increase and become more blatant at first), but it is too easy to slide back. The fight for inclusion continues. So does the fear that the more and more
the "other" is included, the more we will be excluded. That there is not enough to go around.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:29 AM   #48
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Dr. Lowery ended his bendiction today with, "Lord...we ask you to help us work for that day when....white will embrace what is right." Are you telling me race wasn't brought to the forefront or that wasn't a racist, bitter comment?
Post the rest in context and then ask this question...
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:39 AM   #49
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The day after, November 5th, I'm sitting there at a gas station pumping gas and the black woman pumping gas across from me is staring me down, looking at me up and down, saying, "Obama!" with the most venomous look I've ever seen. I'm sitting there, thinking, "I shed a tear last night when Obama gave his exceptance speech. This lady doesn't know me at all. I was truly moved and I didn't even vote for the guy." The bottom line is, when will it end? That is my question. When will the price be paid for my ancestor's wrong doings? When will race not be important? Again, when the rubber meets the road, and you're standing in front of a person that is truly in need, or when you're truly in need like I've been many times...race doesn't matter. It truly doesn't. I just wish it would go away entirely. Does the economy care that this guy is black? Does the war in Iraq care? So, wouldn't we prefer that his qualifications to help strengthen this beautiful country of ours vindicate all of us rather than just his being black vindicate other blacks who still have pain in their hearts? Why segregate the meaning of this historic day? Why would it mean more to you as a black person than it does me as a white person?
I agree with your sentiment that it shouldn't matter...

But this paragraph alone is loaded, and the fact that you can't see the historical relevance of today is sad...









I'm sure when the first woman in your family voted, the first in your family to attend college, or the first to find oppurtunity it was no big deal... right? Because you and everyone you know has always had everything?
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:55 AM   #50
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With respect, I think if you're honestly asking this question then you just don't have much perspective on what black people have been through in this country. I don't mean that as an insult in any way, but from my perspective (as a white man who has never had to endure the kind of systemic discrimination that blacks faced and in some cases continue to face) it is quite obvious why this day would mean more to a black person than it would to a white person. It's hard to put yourself in the position of someone who has faced things you've never had to face, I suppose.

I think Sean answered this part of it quite well, I think. What are your thoughts on his post?

Edited to add: I do appreciate your honesty and willingness to discuss this in a constructive way.
In response to you and Sean, what if his policies hurt our country or fix our country? Only time will tell of course. But what if? Will his being black contribute one way or another? How does a black president or white president or hispanic president help us? It doesn't really matter. Bush was white as the driven snow...and hurt us in a lot of ways. But I remember watching a late night roundtable discussion on television and they were discussing Bush's cabinet. And the subject of diversity came up and a white person brought up the names of Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell. The black person responded, "C'mon. They're as black as you are." And everyone laughed. That leads me to question, then what is black? And what made Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell not black enough? What is it that we're all looking for? A figure head? A puppet that looks like you? What difference should it make? What about the substance? Did Obama win because he was black? I don't know. But again, a lot of white people voted for him so it must have been because of his policies - which is good. But, my view of the larger forest is what drives me to ask this question. And it is probably true that my asset is also my liability - my larger view keeps me from recognizing why today would be more meaningful to the black community. I readily admit that. I'm just trying to add perspective and am looking for perspective.

EDIT: A portion of what I wrote could really be taken out of context. I'm sure the millions of other ethnic groups who voted for Obama voted for his policies as well. I didn't mean to imply they didn't.
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Old 01-21-2009, 01:57 AM   #51
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Post the rest in context and then ask this question...
The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:00 AM   #52
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We aren't going to get anywhere if we never answer questions, just continue to ask more(that seem like they are skirting the subject), and use comedy bits as a source...
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:02 AM   #53
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The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.
The rest of the last statement. It seems like you are picking and choosing here...

Why?
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:11 AM   #54
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The rest of the last statement. It seems like you are picking and choosing here...

Why?
Not meaning too. I had a transcript sitting in front of me and this forum (or my computer) wouldn't allow me to copy and paste. So yeah, out of a little bit of fatigue I typed what I found offensive as a white person, but I've already stated I think the whole last paragraph was inappropriate. Just absolutely unnecessary.

To answer your other question, I do see the significance of this day. I write from the perspective of a white man, only ever seeing a white man in the Oval Office. Of course I am aware that fact alone might disqualifiy me from having an objective point of view as it pertains to the black community and what this means to them. But, I just fear getting swept up in the moment and the wrong man, whether he is white or black or purple, being in the Oval Office for the wrong reasons. I don't think race should be an issue at all when making that decision or celebrating a person obtaining that position. The fact that he is black, won't make him great or horrible.

EDIT: And to add to it, I think if celebrating is to be done, it should be after his policies are a success and the serious issues that face this country are dealt with.
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:13 AM   #55
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We aren't going to get anywhere if we never answer questions, just continue to ask more(that seem like they are skirting the subject), and use comedy bits as a source...

I agree, every new response creates a new question in my mind that I use to try and explain my original question. It can get tidious and out of hand. I certainly don't mean to skirt the issue.
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:25 AM   #56
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I don't think race should be an issue at all when making that decision or celebrating a person obtaining that position. The fact that he is black, won't make him great or horrible.
Well I think we should all procede under the assumption that he(or any canidate) was voted for because of his platform and not his race. For every canidate could be assumed differently. We could assume this one was voted for because of his looks, this one because of his religion, this one because he wore a cowboy hat...

BUT the celebration of and the voting for are two ENTIRELY different things...

Firsts are always celebrated. That is just a fact...
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Old 01-21-2009, 02:39 AM   #57
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Well I think we should all procede under the assumption that he(or any canidate) was voted for because of his platform and not his race. For every canidate could be assumed differently. We could assume this one was voted for because of his looks, this one because of his religion, this one because he wore a cowboy hat...

BUT the celebration of and the voting for are two ENTIRELY different things...

Firsts are always celebrated. That is just a fact...
I can't disagree with hardly anyone who has responded including you. There were a few people I could tell were out there and there would be no constructive conversation to be had. But for the most part all is well. I often am judged for bringing these types of subjects up in small groups at work at lunch or at a gathering. I am the personification of "buzzkill". And I often take an opposing view, that I mysef don't even agree with, in an attempt to simply add perspective. Though this is my first time discussing something like this on a forum and I must say it takes practice. It's hard to keep the arguments linear and coherent without going off track. But all is well with me and you and everyone else here. This is a pretty cool place.

On that note, I'm going to bed. It's 1:39 am and I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight. Good night everyone. Until next time.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:21 AM   #58
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In response to you and Sean, what if his policies hurt our country or fix our country? Only time will tell of course. But what if? Will his being black contribute one way or another? How does a black president or white president or hispanic president help us?
No, but I don't know that those of our celebrating the first black president assume that his blackness will make him a better (or worse) president. It's just that his being president is in itself a milestone worthy of celebration, because it is one more way--and a very important way--in which African American citizens of this country are "just people" the same as anyone else. A black man could ride in the front of the bus, eat in any restuarant he chooses, and now. . .now a black man can be president--just like anyone else. That's pretty momentous and worthy of taking special note. (Now if only a black man can get a cab like everyone else ) The point is his quality as president is almost beside the point (I say almost, because as I noted in another thread, I think there are many of us in the black community who feel he'll need to be near-perfect because he'll be held to higher standard than a white president would. It's always been that way in this country for blacks entering a previously "white" field. You gotta be twice as good as the white guy to get the same level of respect).

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The black person responded, "C'mon. They're as black as you are." And everyone laughed. That leads me to question, then what is black? And what made Condeleeza Rice and Colin Powell not black enough? .
Yeah. . .this is black politics for you. I hate that whole "black enough" thing, maybe because I've never been black enough. I talk "white" and I love U2 for crying out loud. Things are complicated for African Americans. . .still very complicated.

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The rest of the benediction or the rest of the last statements he made, "yellow...redman", etc.? Either way, I personally feel it was inappropriate.
Wasn't this a reference to some 60's era saying or something. Everybody seemed to laugh along knowingly when he said this?

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But, I just fear getting swept up in the moment and the wrong man, whether he is white or black or purple, being in the Oval Office for the wrong reasons.
It always irks me when people say things like "white black or purple." You never (or at least i"ve never) heard black folks say this kind of thing. There are no purple people. It oversimplifies the very messy racial issues in this country. The ugliest racial issues in America are specifically between whites and blacks--the only similar parallel I can think of elsewhere is in South Africa--and it has everything to do the with history of these two grops in America. The kinds of quote "normal" racism I see in other places pale in comparison to the deep-rooted ugliness of black-white racism in the U.S. Purple ain't got nothing to do with it.

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I can't disagree with hardly anyone who has responded including you. There were a few people I could tell were out there and there would be no constructive conversation to be had. But for the most part all is well. I often am judged for bringing these types of subjects up in small groups at work at lunch or at a gathering. I am the personification of "buzzkill". And I often take an opposing view, that I mysef don't even agree with, in an attempt to simply add perspective. Though this is my first time discussing something like this on a forum and I must say it takes practice. It's hard to keep the arguments linear and coherent without going off track. But all is well with me and you and everyone else here. This is a pretty cool place.

On that note, I'm going to bed. It's 1:39 am and I'm having trouble keeping my thoughts straight. Good night everyone. Until next time.
ahh, reminds me of my early days in FYM. Hope you stick around October1977. It can get pretty heated here sometimes, but in general I still find it " a pretty cool place."
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:29 AM   #59
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It's important because it celebrates how far we've come. Even 40 years ago, people would have scoffed (or even worse, been offended) if you'd said that we'd have a black president. Obama becoming president means that finally racism is on it's way out. It's not there yet, because there are still a lot of racist people in this country, but we're on our way to finally understanding and accepting each other. Obama is a symbol of hope.
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Old 01-21-2009, 06:49 AM   #60
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EDIT: And to add to it, I think if celebrating is to be done, it should be after his policies are a success and the serious issues that face this country are dealt with.
But I think the celebration right now is more about the American people and their ability to take another step farther from racism towards equality by voting in a black man.
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