"If Christianity goes, so does Europe"

[financeguy]

A stark warning.

If Christianity goes, so does Europe – Telegraph Blogs

 

[Jive Turkey]

Ya, that guy isn't at all biased

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I like the sound of a religion dying.

 

[INDY500]

I like the sound of a religion dying.

Or in the words of another Vlad:

"Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Or in the words of another Vlad:

"Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class."

Yes, and?

 

[KhanadaRhodes]

wow.

 

[WalkOn21]

There are quite a few non-Christian countries in Europe, e.g. the Czech Republic (majority atheist), and Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia are indigenously Islamic.

None of them are a threat to European unity; in fact the Czech Republic is already part of the EU and the other three countries wish to join. I therefore declare the Telegraph article BS.

Mind you, the Telegraph is a newspaper with a eurosceptic outlook. This kind of 'Europe is a failure / Europe's going to collapse / we're all doomed' nonsense makes up the bigger part of what they print these days.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I have no idea if Financeguy posted this in any seriousness (given his historical atheism, I have a hard time believing it), but as with things of this sort the author has half a point, I guess. Or more accurately, Pope Benedict does. Christianity is part of the ancient fabric of the thing called 'Europe', just as Islam is of the Arab world. And both owe an enormous debt to the ancient Greco-Roman world. Quite where we all go from here, though, is a far more complex matter.

 

[Aygo]

There are quite a few non-Christian countries in Europe, e.g. the Czech Republic (majority atheist), and Albania, Kosovo, Bosnia are indigenously Islamic.

None of them are a threat to European unity; in fact the Czech Republic is already part of the EU and the other three countries wish to join. I therefore declare the Telegraph article BS.

Mind you, the Telegraph is a newspaper with a eurosceptic outlook. This kind of 'Europe is a failure / Europe's going to collapse / we're all doomed' nonsense makes up the bigger part of what they print these days.

Indeed. There are many countries and peoples in Europe that are not christian. Countries like Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Estonia, Czech Republic, are mostly atheist.
There are many jews in France, in Italy and Germany and there's a growing community of Budhists in Europe also. There are many islamists in countries like Albania, Greece, Serbia, Macedonia, Bosnia, Croatia or Turkey.
In fact, in the western Europe, I tend to believe that most people are atheists, but since they were baptised and had a christian education, statistics cathegorize these countries as christian. It's palpable that a big majority of people in these countries don't pratice any religion. Statistics say that 80% of Portuguese and Spanish are devote catholic. I can only laugh when I read things like these. It makes no sense at all if you live in these countries and deal with the spiritual reality of it.

 

[Canadiens1131]

2 out of 5 for the article.

2.5 out of 5 for the ironic thread.

4.5 / 10

 

[Dfit00]

I like the title of the article, but they should have done something like this:

If Christianity goes, so does Europe, Nutella, and all the hot Hungarian babes.

 

[Pearl]

IThere are many islamists in countries like Albania

I've worked and gone to school with a good number of Albanians over the years. They've said while their country is considered Muslim by statistics, most do not practice it. During communism, Albania was declared an atheist state and today, most Albanians call themselves that. They're only Muslim according to culture, like Ireland has a Catholic culture.

 

[LJT]

Surely the foundation of the idea of Europe really comes from Roman times and for the majority of that time it was Pagan...Christianity has changed beyond all recognition from whenever the notion of Europe was thought up, which period of Christianity should we so desperately hold on to? The witch burning one? The current widespread child abuse Catholic church? The women restricted to the kitchen?

As has been mentioned the good parts of Christian philosophy have merely been co-opted from Greco-Roman philosophers.

Things change, time to move on.

 

[the iron horse]

Surely the foundation of the idea of Europe really comes from Roman times and for the majority of that time it was Pagan...Christianity has changed beyond all recognition from whenever the notion of Europe was thought up, which period of Christianity should we so desperately hold on to? The witch burning one? The current widespread child abuse Catholic church? The women restricted to the kitchen?

As has been mentioned the good parts of Christian philosophy have merely been co-opted from Greco-Roman philosophers.

Things change, time to move on.

The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.

 

[Diemen]

The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.

Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

(note that I'm not ascribing all these beliefs to you personally)

 

[Jive Turkey]

The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.

Seems to happen a lot, doesn't it?

 

[Pearl]

The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.

Isn't that what all denominations say? That their church is the right and the real one, while all the others are "misguided"?

 

[the iron horse]

Isn't that what all denominations say? That their church is the right and the real one, while all the others are "misguided"?

That might be what you think, but you are thinking religion, not the teachings of Jesus.

 

[Steved1998]

Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

(note that I'm not ascribing all these beliefs to you personally)

Man is fallible.. When they wrote down and translated Jesus' teachings, they added their own biases and opinions.

 

[yolland]

Probably fruitless trying to prevent the above tangent, but, the article FG posted seemed to be about whether Christianity is a necessary precondition for meaningful European political unity. Not about what the teachings of Christ properly understood have to say about this or that particular behavior.

 

[the iron horse]

Man is fallible.. When they wrote down and translated Jesus' teachings, they added their own biases and opinions.

I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:


Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

 

[Steved1998]

I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:


Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

So then you think man is infallible and God really does hate gays? I thought all the gay bashing stuff was in the Old Testament anyway..They also said it was a sin for slaves and women to disobey his master. Biases biases biases.

 

[Jive Turkey]

You picking and choosing what is holy and what is bullshit shows no bias? For all you know, god really hates gays and is irritated that all the commandment horseshit keeps getting attributed to him

 

[Pearl]

Probably fruitless trying to prevent the above tangent, but, the article FG posted seemed to be about whether Christianity is a necessary precondition for meaningful European political unity.

Clearly not. Since Europe has gone secular, it has been more peaceful. There has not been any wars between the Catholics and Protestants in many, many years.

Now about the Muslims in eastern Europe, from what I understand are mostly secular and liberal types. So, I don't get the fear of the Albanians, Bosnians, Kosovoks (is that what they're called?).

But I do get the fear of Turkey because many Turks are conservative, especially in the mainland, not Istanbul. Also, in my opinion, I really don't think Turkey should join the EU because only a small part of it is in Europe, while a large part is in west Asia. Geographically, I don't think Turkey is part of Europe.

 

[Kieran McConville]

Meh, cultures drift, and that includes all human activity, of which religion is merely one facet.

Consider the drift from Roman republic to empire with republican trappings, to Orthodox Christian autocracy on the Persian model, within a space of about 500 years.

 

[Aygo]

Clearly not. Since Europe has gone secular, it has been more peaceful. There has not been any wars between the Catholics and Protestants in many, many years.

Now about the Muslims in eastern Europe, from what I understand are mostly secular and liberal types. So, I don't get the fear of the Albanians, Bosnians, Kosovoks (is that what they're called?).

But I do get the fear of Turkey because many Turks are conservative, especially in the mainland, not Istanbul. Also, in my opinion, I really don't think Turkey should join the EU because only a small part of it is in Europe, while a large part is in west Asia. Geographically, I don't think Turkey is part of Europe.

I don't think that's the reason why some don't want Turkey in the EU. Let's not forget that Greece, although it has the size and population of Portugal, it has one of the biggest budgets in defense. Why? Because it has a long-term conflict with Turkey.
Central Europe doesn't want Turkey in the EU... Now. Because most of Europe has christian-democrat/conservative governments. Ask what was these countries' opinion about letting Turkey into the EU a few years ago when the governments were mostly social-democrats.
Many still think that Turkey should enter the EU, specially now. For two big reasons. Turkey is called by the european economic/finantial press The Sleeping Giant, because it represents a huge potential of export market and production (the same way eastern Europe represented 20 years ago), specially for countries whose economy depend a lot on exportable products... Like Germany (the country that, curiously, has been dealing with an immigration issue of people coming from... Turkey) for example.
The second reason is related with the revolts of the Arab Spring. These countries are very vulnerable now to all kind of extremist or totalitary regimes. That's what represent a threat to Europe. Europe doesn't care if they're islams or not: the north of Africa is a huge market for economies like France and Spain and it still have huge potential to explore.
So, Europe want to keep these countries with revamped regimes with friendly relationships. There's where Turkey comes in, because Turkey has been gaining a very big influence on its neighbour islam countries in economy, finances, but mostly, in diplomacy.
The last thing that Europe wants now is these countries to create a political/economical bloc like the EU is and that represents direct competition in a moment of weakness for the EU.

 

[Diemen]

I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:

Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

You misunderstood me. I know that Jesus didn't teach those things, but many Christians (including you in the case of homosexuality) have advocated those positions as compatible with the teachings of Jesus - maybe not directly in words, but if they use religion to defend those views, it's not hard to connect the dots.

 

[WalkOn21]

In fact, in the western Europe, I tend to believe that most people are atheists, but since they were baptised and had a christian education, statistics cathegorize these countries as christian.

Censuses usually reflect what religion people self-identify with. Statistics on religion are usually presented as "xx % of people self-identify as Christians / Muslims / atheists etc" and mostly aren't based on things like baptism.

 

[Aygo]

Censuses usually reflect what religion people self-identify with. Statistics on religion are usually presented as "xx % of people self-identify as Christians / Muslims / atheists etc" and mostly aren't based on things like baptism.

In some european countries, what censuses ask is if you had a religious education and if you still go to religious pratices. Many people in western Europe don't practice any religion and are not believers of some kind of God, but since they had a religious education and the social foundation is religious-related, they tend to answer that they're practicant of the religion x or y because the social bond is still there.