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Old 12-03-2011, 08:39 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse

The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.
Seems to happen a lot, doesn't it?
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Old 12-03-2011, 08:55 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
The abuses you mentioned were caused by a misguided religion, not from the
teachings of Jesus.
Isn't that what all denominations say? That their church is the right and the real one, while all the others are "misguided"?
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Isn't that what all denominations say? That their church is the right and the real one, while all the others are "misguided"?


That might be what you think, but you are thinking religion, not the teachings of Jesus.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:09 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?

(note that I'm not ascribing all these beliefs to you personally)


Man is fallible.. When they wrote down and translated Jesus' teachings, they added their own biases and opinions.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:18 PM   #20
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Probably fruitless trying to prevent the above tangent, but, the article FG posted seemed to be about whether Christianity is a necessary precondition for meaningful European political unity. Not about what the teachings of Christ properly understood have to say about this or that particular behavior.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:20 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Steved1998 View Post
Man is fallible.. When they wrote down and translated Jesus' teachings, they added their own biases and opinions.


I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:


Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:27 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by the iron horse View Post
I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:


Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?
So then you think man is infallible and God really does hate gays? I thought all the gay bashing stuff was in the Old Testament anyway..They also said it was a sin for slaves and women to disobey his master. Biases biases biases.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:44 PM   #23
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You picking and choosing what is holy and what is bullshit shows no bias? For all you know, god really hates gays and is irritated that all the commandment horseshit keeps getting attributed to him
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:56 PM   #24
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Probably fruitless trying to prevent the above tangent, but, the article FG posted seemed to be about whether Christianity is a necessary precondition for meaningful European political unity.
Clearly not. Since Europe has gone secular, it has been more peaceful. There has not been any wars between the Catholics and Protestants in many, many years.

Now about the Muslims in eastern Europe, from what I understand are mostly secular and liberal types. So, I don't get the fear of the Albanians, Bosnians, Kosovoks (is that what they're called?).

But I do get the fear of Turkey because many Turks are conservative, especially in the mainland, not Istanbul. Also, in my opinion, I really don't think Turkey should join the EU because only a small part of it is in Europe, while a large part is in west Asia. Geographically, I don't think Turkey is part of Europe.
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Old 12-03-2011, 09:58 PM   #25
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Meh, cultures drift, and that includes all human activity, of which religion is merely one facet.

Consider the drift from Roman republic to empire with republican trappings, to Orthodox Christian autocracy on the Persian model, within a space of about 500 years.
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Old 12-04-2011, 12:22 AM   #26
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Clearly not. Since Europe has gone secular, it has been more peaceful. There has not been any wars between the Catholics and Protestants in many, many years.

Now about the Muslims in eastern Europe, from what I understand are mostly secular and liberal types. So, I don't get the fear of the Albanians, Bosnians, Kosovoks (is that what they're called?).

But I do get the fear of Turkey because many Turks are conservative, especially in the mainland, not Istanbul. Also, in my opinion, I really don't think Turkey should join the EU because only a small part of it is in Europe, while a large part is in west Asia. Geographically, I don't think Turkey is part of Europe.
I don't think that's the reason why some don't want Turkey in the EU. Let's not forget that Greece, although it has the size and population of Portugal, it has one of the biggest budgets in defense. Why? Because it has a long-term conflict with Turkey.
Central Europe doesn't want Turkey in the EU... Now. Because most of Europe has christian-democrat/conservative governments. Ask what was these countries' opinion about letting Turkey into the EU a few years ago when the governments were mostly social-democrats.
Many still think that Turkey should enter the EU, specially now. For two big reasons. Turkey is called by the european economic/finantial press The Sleeping Giant, because it represents a huge potential of export market and production (the same way eastern Europe represented 20 years ago), specially for countries whose economy depend a lot on exportable products... Like Germany (the country that, curiously, has been dealing with an immigration issue of people coming from... Turkey) for example.
The second reason is related with the revolts of the Arab Spring. These countries are very vulnerable now to all kind of extremist or totalitary regimes. That's what represent a threat to Europe. Europe doesn't care if they're islams or not: the north of Africa is a huge market for economies like France and Spain and it still have huge potential to explore.
So, Europe want to keep these countries with revamped regimes with friendly relationships. There's where Turkey comes in, because Turkey has been gaining a very big influence on its neighbour islam countries in economy, finances, but mostly, in diplomacy.
The last thing that Europe wants now is these countries to create a political/economical bloc like the EU is and that represents direct competition in a moment of weakness for the EU.
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Old 12-04-2011, 06:56 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by the iron horse

I disagree.

I'm waiting on Diemen to post where Jesus said:

Jesus taught that gay people should be demeaned and actively barred from expressing their love for another human being and seeking equal protections for their relationships?

Jesus taught that it's okay to torture your enemy if you think it helps your cause?

Jesus taught that blacks and whites shouldn't mix?
You misunderstood me. I know that Jesus didn't teach those things, but many Christians (including you in the case of homosexuality) have advocated those positions as compatible with the teachings of Jesus - maybe not directly in words, but if they use religion to defend those views, it's not hard to connect the dots.
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Old 12-04-2011, 07:45 AM   #28
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In fact, in the western Europe, I tend to believe that most people are atheists, but since they were baptised and had a christian education, statistics cathegorize these countries as christian.
Censuses usually reflect what religion people self-identify with. Statistics on religion are usually presented as "xx % of people self-identify as Christians / Muslims / atheists etc" and mostly aren't based on things like baptism.
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Old 12-04-2011, 08:40 AM   #29
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Censuses usually reflect what religion people self-identify with. Statistics on religion are usually presented as "xx % of people self-identify as Christians / Muslims / atheists etc" and mostly aren't based on things like baptism.
In some european countries, what censuses ask is if you had a religious education and if you still go to religious pratices. Many people in western Europe don't practice any religion and are not believers of some kind of God, but since they had a religious education and the social foundation is religious-related, they tend to answer that they're practicant of the religion x or y because the social bond is still there.
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