I am so confused.

[Tiger Edge]

There are plenty of living abandoned children in this world who are subject to much worse than most animals in this country. If all those people who claim to be pro-life would lend a voice to that cause then maybe they wouldn't seem like such hypocrites.

Not to derail this thread but:

All other murder is illegal

Is capital punishment murder? Keep that in mind, please.

Forget it, another argument for another day.

 

[martha]

I was going to respond to all the bullshit about dead babies, but then I realized I don't give enough of a shit about the people who believe it, so I'm going to go eat my lunch.

 

[flossymay]

There are plenty of living abandoned children in this world who are subject to much worse than most animals in this country. If all those people who claim to be pro-life would lend a voice to that cause then maybe they wouldn't seem like such hypocrites.

Not to derail this thread but:

Is capital punishment murder? Keep that in mind, please.

Forget it, another argument for another day.

I agree about the abandoned children, I would have a house overrun with them if my husband felt the same way as I do. I don't see how there being abandoned/neglected children makes pro-life people hypocrites?

Capital punishment is murder. I used to believe in it, but now I don't, but probably for a different reason than you'd think. I think killing a murderer is too easy - Ted Bundy lead a pretty cushy life in prison until he was executed. I think they should actually be punished for the rest of their natural lives - do hard manual labor, etc.

 

[toscano]

I cannot imagine in this day and age that late-term abortion is EVER necessary to protect the life of the mother. If she can undergo a procedure to kill her unborn child, then she can also undergo either inducement of labor or a C-section to deliver the child and let it live. I don't buy the "health of the mother" hogwash, it just doesn't fly in this age of advanced medical techniques.

Do you have any medical training ?

 

[flossymay]

I'm not a doctor if that's what you're asking. I have worked in the medical field most of my life. I've garnered a heck of a lot of knowledge on the subject just by reading - and being pregnant five times.

 

[Tiger Edge]

I don't see how there being abandoned/neglected children makes pro-life people hypocrites?

Because most people are willing to argue about an unborn child being an innocent life before looking to the South, East or West. We should be far more concerned with life that's already living on this planet than those who haven't even been born yet.

Example: If you asked the average McCain supporter about whether or not we should send troops to Darfur they would likely say no or at the very least have no idea what is going on there. That is what makes them pro-life hypocrites.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

The "health of a mother" argument can extend all the way to ailments like "depression" and other mental disorders.

You honestly believe that Obama supports abortion under those conditions?

 

[flossymay]

Because most people are willing to argue about an unborn child being an innocent life before looking to the South, East or West. We should be far more concerned with life that's already living on this planet than those who haven't even been born yet.

Example: If you asked the average McCain supporter about whether or not we should send troops to Darfur they would likely say no or at the very least have no idea what is going on there. That is what makes them pro-life hypocrites.

I'm sure the same could be said about many pro-choice people as well. I think in general people tend to be pretty ignorant about a lot that is going on in the world; they get so caught up in their lives they don't pay attention to what else is going on.

All life is precious, born and unborn, and we should be taking care of all of them.

 

[Tiger Edge]

So why is there no overwhelming support for Darfur intervention from the Republican campaign? So far I believe that Obama is the one who has supported immediate aid to that country.

 

[toscano]

I'm not a doctor if that's what you're asking. I have worked in the medical field most of my life. I've garnered a heck of a lot of knowledge on the subject just by reading - and being pregnant five times.

OK, so you're not a Doctor, thanks but when I go to get info about "advanced medical techniques" that's where I'd go.

The medical side of things was already posted by an actual Physician in this thread.

The "health of the mother" argument is so much more compelling when it comes from someone qualified.

 

[Irvine511]

So it's okay to take the life of a child because they aren't perfect? When will the gas chambers open up?

would you force someone to live a short life of physical pain?

Harlequin type ichthyosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[flossymay]

So why is there no overwhelming support for Darfur intervention from the Republican campaign? So far I believe that Obama is the one who has supported immediate aid to that country.

I have no idea.

 

[flossymay]

OK, so you're not a Doctor, thanks but when I go to get info about "advanced medical techniques" that's where I'd go.

The medical side of things was already posted by an actual Physician in this thread.

The "health of the mother" argument is so much more compelling when it comes from someone qualified.

Just because someone is an "actual physician" doesn't make them an expert in everything, that's his opinion. If you want to make a truely informed decision you'll research it yourself instead of listening to one "actual physician."

 

[Tiger Edge]

I have no idea.

.

pro-life hypocrites.

 

[flossymay]

would you force someone to live a short life of physical pain?

Harlequin type ichthyosis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).

 

[toscano]

Because most people are willing to argue about an unborn child being an innocent life before looking to the South, East or West. We should be far more concerned with life that's already living on this planet than those who haven't even been born yet.

Example: If you asked the average McCain supporter about whether or not we should send troops to Darfur they would likely say no or at the very least have no idea what is going on there. That is what makes them pro-life hypocrites.

On the one hand the Republicans/Conservatives take a "pro-life" stance, on the other they have no real practical plan to provide healthcare benefits to those who don't have them. We were lucky, we CHOSE to have our 3 kids, I had great health insurance, we were financially able to have them. My middle one spent a week at Stanford Children's Hospital Neo-Natal ICU, the bill was over $20K (this was over 15 years ago now) I think I paid $100 as the co-pay (we had a great health plan at that company !).

Luckily he is now healthy and had no lasting health issues, but getting people to be more "pro-choice" might sit better if there was a strategy to help people AFTER the birth too.

 

[flossymay]

.

?????

I don't/can't speak for the entire Republican party. Darfur isn't the only country hurting, either. There are many that need assistance. There are many people that need assistance right here in this country, especially now. I don't think the blame for lack of assistance can be placed on one party.

 

[Irvine511]

It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).

so you're fine with your child suffering for a week or so, and then dying, as is the case with the vast majority of those with this particular birth defect.

 

[toscano]

Just because someone is an "actual physician" doesn't make them an expert in everything,

No, it doesn't make him an expert in say, nuclear physics, but since his job is directly related to the aftermath of premature births and he HAS had medical training, it DOES him make him more of an expert than you and I combined.

that's his opinion.

No, he posted facts.

If I want an informed decision on medical issues I'll ask a Dr., not someone who's been around Doctors.

 

[flossymay]

so you're fine with your child suffering for a week or so, and then dying, as is the case with the vast majority of those with this particular birth defect.

To quote Wikipedia:
In the past, the disorder was invariably fatal, whether due to dehydration, infection (sepsis), restricted breathing due to the plating, or other related causes. The most common cause of death was systemic infection and sufferers rarely survived for more than a few days. However, there have been improvements in care, most notably the drug Isotrex. Some patients have survived into adolescence and, in very rare cases, lived to adulthood.

This is not necessarily a fatal disease and NO I would not take the life of my child if they were diagnosed with it.

 

[toscano]

It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).

It sure as hell doesn't belong to a State or Federal Government, and actually next-of-kin DO have rights to give Drs consent when a patient is unable to consent in cases where for example aborting a fetus can save the life of a mother.

You'd rather let both die ? I know Diamond falls down on the side of the fetus over the mother, how about you ?

 

[BVS]

It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).

But if the mother's life is in danger and you deny her the procedure to remove the fetus in order to save her life aren't you deciding if she lives?

 

[flossymay]

No, it doesn't make him an expert in say, nuclear physics, but since his job is directly related to the aftermath of premature births and he HAS had medical training, it DOES him make him more of an expert than you and I combined.




No, he posted facts.

If I want an informed decision on medical issues I'll ask a Dr., not someone who's been around Doctors.

He posted facts as he knows them and is still offering his views in regard to his experiences. You could probably poll many peds that deal with preemies and get a different opinion from all of them.

 

[flossymay]

It sure as hell doesn't belong to a State or Federal Government, and actually next-of-kin DO have rights to give Drs consent when a patient is unable to consent in cases where for example aborting a fetus can save the life of a mother.

You'd rather let both die ? I know Diamond falls down on the side of the fetus over the mother, how about you ?

No, I would never sacrifice my child to save my own life.

 

[Varitek]

Just because someone is an "actual physician" doesn't make them an expert in everything, that's his opinion. If you want to make a truely informed decision you'll research it yourself instead of listening to one "actual physician."

I suppose you don't believe in global warming, either, because it is just the "opinion" of "actual scientists."

 

[Irvine511]

To quote Wikipedia:
In the past, the disorder was invariably fatal, whether due to dehydration, infection (sepsis), restricted breathing due to the plating, or other related causes. The most common cause of death was systemic infection and sufferers rarely survived for more than a few days. However, there have been improvements in care, most notably the drug Isotrex. Some patients have survived into adolescence and, in very rare cases, lived to adulthood.

This is not necessarily a fatal disease and NO I would not take the life of my child if they were diagnosed with it.

you realize that this is the exception. most babies with this rare disorder die, and those that survive for a small amount of time live very painful lives. they can count on one hand those that have survived into adolescence.

i would never put my child through that. i would want to protect my child from living a short life filled with pain.

 

[flossymay]

I suppose you don't believe in global warming, either, because it is just the "opinion" of "actual scientists."

What does that have to do with this debate?

 

[flossymay]

you realize that this is the exception. most babies with this rare disorder die, and those that survive for a small amount of time live very painful lives. they can count on one hand those that have survived into adolescence.

i would never put my child through that. i would want to protect my child from living a short life filled with pain.

That would be your choice, though I'm not sure being aborted is any less painful.

 

[toscano]

He posted facts as he knows them and is still offering his views in regard to his experiences. You could probably poll many peds that deal with preemies and get a different opinion from all of them.

Well, we don't have many peds here to poll, his is the most informed opinion here and he also has more actual facts and experience to back him up.

I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say speak for what all other pediatricians would say hell they could all be in 100% agreement for all you or I know.

 

[flossymay]

Well, we don't have many peds here to poll, his is the most informed opinion here and he also has more actual facts and experience to back him up.

I wouldn't be so presumptious as to say speak for what all other pediatricians would say hell they could all be in 100% agreement for all you or I know.

That is very true. I still wouldn't base my beliefs on the opinion of one person.