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Old 10-22-2008, 03:45 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post

I get confused by Republicans/Conservatives, I always hear "less governement" but there was Palin yesterday calling for a FEDERAL ban on gay marriage, they want to get involve din abortion, etc.

Can someone 'splain this to me ? Or is it just a case of "the judiciary and the governement should stay out of our lives except when we want to further our own agenda" ? Is it really that simple ?
yes

and they are for less government only when it's convenient.
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Old 10-22-2008, 08:56 AM   #62
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why? isn't that life just as innocent as any other?
In the case of rape or incest, the woman is "less guilty" than she would be had she committed the crime of having sex for non-reproductive reasons. Thus, she may not need to be punished by being forced to bear the child.

I know that sounds harsh, but after reading probably thousands of posts on dozens of forums about this issue, I'm convinced that the problem isn't the abortion, but the sex. A huge majority of people who oppose abortion are also opposed to things that prevent pregnancy. They are also against things that would help the child post-birth, so IMO it's logical that it's the sex, not the "life" that the real issue is. People treat the child as a sentence for a crime, rather than a child. I have a problem with that.

IMO, if you're against abortion, don't have one. It's beyond me why people get so worked up over whether poor people should be allowed to make their own life decisions. And I say "poor people" because if anyone thinks an abortion ban is going to affect anyone making over $100k a year with Canada so close, they're in denial. Wealthy people will always have access to abortion.


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and they are for less government only when it's convenient.
Conservatives are in favor of smaller government as it applies to economics (i.e. less regulation of big business), but in favor of bigger government when it comes to social issues (i.e. drug laws, reproductive rights, etc).

Liberals are the opposite.

If you really want someone who is in favor of small government across the board, you're talking about Libertarians. Anybody else wants some government involvement in one form or another.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:06 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by cydewaze View Post
In the case of rape or incest, the woman is "less guilty" than she would be had she committed the crime of having sex for non-reproductive reasons. Thus, she may not need to be punished by being forced to bear the child.

But the whole "rape or incest" thing is such a pandering to make them look reasonable. Because not one of them that I've ever seen can cough up a plan where this would work. Do we wait for a conviction? Do we put the women in a room with bright lights and make them tell? No one can tell me how this would work, yet they all trot it out to make themselves appear to give a shit about the woman.

At least Palin's honest when she says she doesn't even support abortion rights for rape and incest victims.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:07 AM   #64
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Conservatives are in favor of smaller government as it applies to economics (i.e. less regulation of big business), but in favor of bigger government when it comes to social issues (i.e. drug laws, reproductive rights, etc).

Liberals are the opposite.

If you really want someone who is in favor of small government across the board, you're talking about Libertarians. Anybody else wants some government involvement in one form or another.


That's not true - liberals are in favor of "small government" on social issues in as much as they want more social freedoms, but liberals are in favor of big government programs in areas such as social welfare, education, scientific research....

it is accurate to say that conservatives want more economic freedom and more social regulation, and liberals are vice versa, but that's different than the size of government.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:10 AM   #65
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But the whole "rape or incest" thing is such a pandering to make them look reasonable. Because not one of them that I've ever seen can cough up a plan where this would work. Do we wait for a conviction? Do we put the women in a room with bright lights and make them tell? No one can tell me how this would work, yet they all trot it out to make themselves appear to give a shit about the woman.

At least Palin's honest when she says she doesn't even support abortion rights for rape and incest victims.
good point - let's wait for the 18 month long trial to conclude with a guilty verdict, and then allow the woman to get an abortion.

oh wait.

basically, if the abortion ban allowed an exception for rape (and the abortion to occur before the end of the trial), it would be a terrible incentive for women to falsely accuse men of rape.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:10 AM   #66
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it is accurate to say that conservatives want more economic freedom
Except when it comes to massive Federal bankrolling of failed deregulation policies, then they're as good a socialist as any......
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:20 AM   #67
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it is accurate to say that conservatives want more economic freedom and more social regulation, and liberals are vice versa, but that's different than the size of government.
People routinely use "big" and "small" to refer to the level of government involvement in something.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:23 AM   #68
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Yes, but while liberals want more social freedoms, they do not want "small government" on social issues, but massive government agencies and spending.
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Old 10-22-2008, 09:24 AM   #69
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Except when it comes to massive Federal bankrolling of failed deregulation policies, then they're as good a socialist as any......
Well as McCain said, that was during a crisis sputter sputter

(see link to daily show segment on socialism)
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:11 AM   #70
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Yes, but while liberals want more social freedoms, they do not want "small government" on social issues, but massive government agencies and spending.
Conservatives want massive government agencies and spending too. They just want the spending to be on different agencies than liberals do.

But I think we're starting to threadjack now...
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:54 AM   #71
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To answer the second one, I do not think you have any kids Pfan (I am not sure)...but for me, having two children....it is extremely hard to think abortion as another "issue", I just can not compare this with economy issues, foreign policy, etc. I just can't.
There are some great comments here, thanks to all.
I think that's interesting because I don't have kids and this is one of those issues where I think such things do come into play. On the other hand, take my parents, who have multiple children and they are both staunchly pro-choice. At the same time, they see it as a less important issue than the ones you mentioned so I think even among people with children you will get a spectrum of responses.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:03 AM   #72
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I think that's interesting because I don't have kids and this is one of those issues where I think such things do come into play. On the other hand, take my parents, who have multiple children and they are both staunchly pro-choice. At the same time, they see it as a less important issue than the ones you mentioned so I think even among people with children you will get a spectrum of responses.
I have 3 kids, this issue isn't in my Top 10, possibly not even Top 20.

There's so much more to worry about at home, within the US and in the world at large. But that's just me.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:39 AM   #73
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basically, if the abortion ban allowed an exception for rape... it would be a terrible incentive for women to falsely accuse men of rape.
That's exactly what Norma McCorvey now claims she did in the early 70's. Lied that her pregnancy was a result of rape.

Who is Norma McCorvey? Well, she's probably better known as Sarah Roe of Roe v Wade.

She also now supports the overturning of Roe v Wade.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:51 AM   #74
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That's exactly what Norma McCorvey now claims she did in the early 70's. Lied that her pregnancy was a result of rape.

Who is Norma McCorvey? Well, she's probably better known as Sarah Roe of Roe v Wade.

She also now supports the overturning of Roe v Wade.
Good job she's not on the Supreme court then eh ?

So it's ok to change your mind on an issue once you have some perspective ? Good, just be sure to apply that consistently then.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:57 AM   #75
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Knowing what I know, if my wife were to become deathly ill because of the pregnancy, I would without question choose the potential of life with her the mother
Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.


And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

YouTube - Barack Obama Rick Warren Abortion Question

YouTube - McCain at Rick Warren's: "I will be a Pro-Life President"
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