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Old 10-22-2008, 11:26 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by kafrun View Post
As I said before, I just have a different idea of at what point you have choices and at what point you have responsibilities.
I'm sure you do. I've known women who've gone through this when I wouldn't have made that choice either. But once we take it upon ourselves to think we have the right to limit others' choices, then lines start getting drawn, people start losing freedoms, and pretty soon it's all gone. Pretty soon women are forced to have their father's children, pretty soon access to birth control is limited.

Don't kid yourself; you may not be typically anti-choice, but those you may vote for usually are. Look deep into their positions. It isn't pretty.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:31 PM   #197
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No pro-life person has ever and I mean ever answered these questions to my satisfaction:

1. When we criminalize abortion, what is the sentence the woman will receive when she gets an abortion done illegally? How much jail time should your wives, daughters, cousins, friends get?

2. Doctors who perform illegal abortions - how will we prosecute them, what will their jail sentences be?

3. People who drive the woman to the doctor or support her actions in some concrete way in getting an illegal abortion will be aiding and abetting a serious crime. What will their jail sentences be?
And what of admin staff of facilities? Those who are on the payroll in some way, like cleaners of the facility? What kinds of sentences will they receive? Complicity is just not an issue the anti abortion camp think about. We're one of the few countries in the whole world who, for example, take complicity so far that we have the ability to prosecute victims of domestic violence who invite or allow their offender back into their home. Novel, no?
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:33 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by martha View Post
I'm sure you do. I've known women who've gone through this when I wouldn't have made that choice either. But once we take it upon ourselves to think we have the right to limit others' choices, then lines start getting drawn, people start losing freedoms, and pretty soon it's all gone. Pretty soon women are forced to have their father's children, pretty soon access to birth control is limited.

Don't kid yourself; you may not be typically anti-choice, but those you may vote for usually are. Look deep into their positions. It isn't pretty.
I would debate whether choosing to terminate an unborn child is any less wrong than terminating one that's already born, but that's yet another point we could argue til we're blue in the face.

That's why I'm not a regular on FYM, it hurts the part of my brain that thinks
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:33 PM   #199
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We're one of the few countries in the whole world who, for example, take complicity so far that we have the ability to prosecute victims of domestic violence who invite or allow their offender back into their home. Novel, no?
That's appalling. Have you not yet accepted the concept of battered woman syndrome and how that factors into decision making? Interesting.

We don't have anything like that here although there have been civil cases where children have sued their mothers for negligence when the mothers refused to leave abusive husbands. They're not often successful but they do exist.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:53 PM   #200
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That's appalling. Have you not yet accepted the concept of battered woman syndrome and how that factors into decision making? Interesting.

We don't have anything like that here although there have been civil cases where children have sued their mothers for negligence when the mothers refused to leave abusive husbands. They're not often successful but they do exist.
I didn't know what to think of it at first, but I've come around to it a great deal more. It's not due to being insensitive to the individual victims. It's actually a bit of a desperate attempt from the courts to get both victims and offenders to cease ignoring court orders, to accept the crime that it is. Scenario often involves the woman taking out restraining order against husband/boyfriend. The court approves it, encourages the woman to follow it through, obtain support, etc. Then she, in a later period of whatever emotional state, answers the phone or door and agrees to meet the offender. Statistically, the following period of contact will allow the abuse to resume. The police are yet again called to separate them and the cycle continues. From the court's perspective, this is not about only the individual woman it issued the order for originally. It is a blanket order the courts are allowed to issue to protect anyone and everyone who needs it. The idea of prosecuting women who ignore it is to address the very real problem of people not taking these things seriously. Opinion and perspective needs to change, we'd all agree. Domestic violence is to an extent still seen as something which should be kept behind closed doors so the couple can 'work it out'. We've got to change the idea that they are an order which can be dropped on whim, or ignored outright, if not for the women who are making bad choices, but for the women and girls who lack the capacity to make those bad choices, and are more powerless in their own decisions. It has to start with the weakest and cover from them up.
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Old 10-23-2008, 12:39 AM   #201
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Right. I have to put my two cents in here.


I am pro-choice. If I ended up pregnant, I would want an abortion. That is my right.

I use birth control, and am somewhat infertile anyway due to an ovarian disorder, but if my some fluke or twist of fate I ended up pregnant anyway... I would not want the baby.

I don't like children. I would be a terrible mother. I am far too selfish and emotionally unstable. And before someone shouts that adoption is an option (and I won't even go into how messed up the adoption system can be in his country), I'll state that even if I didn't have to raise the child, I wouldn't want to have it, because I would invariably be passing on my own fucked up genes and anxiety/mental health problems to a child that does not deserve that.

To me, a fetus is not a baby until it can survive outside of its mother's body. Thus, I am against late-term abortion. But to me, early-term abortion isn't so much murder, as it is removal of something which is completely reliant upon the mother, and the mother should have the choice on what she wants to do with that.

What I do with my body is my choice, and the government should have absolutely no right to interfere with that. The only people allowed to get all up into my vagina-business are me, my boyfriend, and once a year, my gynocologist. The government can fuck off.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:26 AM   #202
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I just realized something, haven't we sort have devolved from the original point of the thread?
Carlos, as I understand it, was seeking some analysis of the candidates stances on abortions. I assume he wanted more than a simple pro/anti-choice label, but some examples perhaps of their past behavior on the issue, whether what they have said coincides with that they do, stuff like that...

we, as interesting as it has been, have simply turned this into another yes/no abortion thread.

I don't know if Carlos has already found all the answers he seeks, but I thought I would throw this out there into our fiery debate.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:23 AM   #203
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This is what started my dilemma;
Born Alive Truth


Bri, all I wish is for Obama to be more direct with his stance. I am still reading as much as possible on the topic.
You are right, btw....I started this thread because I wanted to find out more about both candidates opinions on the issue. The "Born Alive" issue is something that opened up my eyes to the matter more than ever before.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:43 AM   #204
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I haven't the time to look completely thoroughly over that site at this moment, although certainly at first glance, it seems to be bent on painting Obama as being completely against saving babies who survive late-term abortions.

But if you look deeper on that site, at the actual transcripts of the senate meetings (which the site only links to with text stating that Obama spoke against the bill, but doesn't quote), you'll see that Obama was for doing everything medically necessary to save viable infants that survive late-term abortions, but against certain terminology in the bill that could threaten to abolition abortions completely in the future. You have to be careful in how you set up something like that, to avoid people deciding that ALL fetuses are viable, and that under the bill, abortions should be banned altogether.

The site seems to be being run by people that are deliberately overlooking the fine print.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:50 AM   #205
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Correct. I am aware of that. Thanks.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:53 AM   #206
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The website belongs to a Section 527 organization (like the Swiftboat one).
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:24 AM   #207
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Originally Posted by kafrun View Post
II just think there has to be a better way..
I just want to reinforce what a few others have said: The better way is loads of comprehensive sex education, and accessible and affordable birth control. (e.g. if viagra is covered by insurance, the pill as well as alternative methods of birth control should also be covered, and should be even more affordable.)
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Old 10-23-2008, 03:28 AM   #208
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In adding to anitram's post, if a female were to get an abortion and in asking what the punishment would be were abortion made illegal, would only the woman be punished? What about the male?
Great question, and one that doesn't get brought up enough.

Seriously, men and women equally make the decision to have sex. And most often, if a condom is not used, it is due to pressure from the male. Then, the women bears the physical, emotional and financial responsibility of a child, the man can walk away if he so chooses. (Yes, there are courts and child support payments, but these things don't always work, and don't replace true paternal responsibility.) If the woman decides to have an abortion, I am sure it is she who would be responsible if it were made illegal. (Men could always claim they didn't know, when it's convenient for them, as they do now.)

Now, I'm all for individual women consulting with the father if they are going to have an abortion, although I believe that should be an individual choice and never, ever legally mandated. (If I were pregnant, I would talk to the father before having an abortion. But because I am at a point in life where there is no freakin' way I want kids, I not only use birth control, but I make a point of not sleeping with someone if I know they are anti-abortion.)

But if you think about how it is practically played out, a woman always ends up with all of the responsibility and consequences of a pregnancy and an abortion. The man can choose to share in this, but it isn't forced upon him as it is the woman.
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Old 10-23-2008, 08:02 AM   #209
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Originally Posted by DreamOutLoud13 View Post
You have to be careful in how you set up something like that, to avoid people deciding that ALL fetuses are viable, and that under the bill, abortions should be banned altogether.
It's no accident when that happens; that's why and how they do things.
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Old 10-23-2008, 11:49 AM   #210
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Carlos,

I think you're Catholic, and more Catholics than not (but not all) are voting McCain-because of the life issue.


Stick to your conscience brother.

God Bless,
<>
Wow, what a surprise that you're WRONG.

And you're not just WRONG you're pretty much DEAD WRONG.

Pew poll:



You can read about how wrong you are here.
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