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Old 10-22-2008, 10:18 PM   #181
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of course, what was I thinking
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:20 PM   #182
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I wonder if Carlos has ventured back to the thread, read a few pages and then backed slowly out of the thread saying "Oh, HELL, no."

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Old 10-22-2008, 10:27 PM   #183
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I feel the sound "Eeeep! " might be involved too.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:32 PM   #184
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"Quoted For Truth"

although sometimes I like to pretend it stands for "quite fucking true," because sometimes that feels more appropriate.
i thought it was the latter.

<>
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:38 PM   #185
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I don't really believe the question is serious. I think it's designed to create a distraction and focus attention away from the essentially evil nature of abortion.
I don't think abortion is evil.. I'm sure very few abortions were performed out of cold-blooded disregard for life.

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Well the anti-choice typically want the deck stacked in their favor:

Don't provide condoms
Don't provide healthcare
Don't provide welfare
Don't give the Mother a choice even if it kills her
Don't let the child marry if it ends up being gay
I don't agree with any of these ideas. Not all pro-life people are woman-hating, sex-hating conservatives

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i will say, though, that i don't like the idea of "punishing" someone for having sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term.
I don't think of it as punishing, just holding people accountable for their choices.

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1 i also think that if a child is conceived through rape and/or incest, and if we are to take the view that all life is sacred or deserves a chance, then allowing abortions in those cases belies the belief that, deep down, it's not about the precious life of the child but about punishing women for having sex.
I really have a hard time stomaching the idea of abortion, but the reason I say a choice should be given in the case of rape and/or incest is that while I haven't experienced and can't imagine either, as a woman the very idea disturbs me enough and I don't know what kind of additional trauma carrying the child to term would hold for the victim. It has nothing to do with holding that life any less sacred or punishing a woman for having sex(again, I don't see the connection with hating women or sex).. I know it comes across as contradictory, it's just a gut feeling I have.

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how would you feel if part of sex education involved ways of being sexually intimate but not risking pregnancy?

it would seem to me that pro-life activists (not you, just saying in general) would be quite relieved that oral sex, mutual masturbation, and even anal sex are increasingly part of the sexual vernacular. no one's going to get pregnant with any of those activities, so why not encourage fellatio and cunninlingus? after all, it's all about the life of the child, so let's make sure that mom doesn't get pregnant by making sure that dad's semen stays outside her body. that, to me, seems a very responsible way to have sex.

or is it really just about being anti-sex?
For me it's not about being anti-sex at all. I'm all for a wide range of sex education, including the physiological issues, options, alternatives, abstinence, etc. It's just (again) about a gut feeling I have about people taking responsibilty for their choices BEFORE getting into any kind of situatation. If sex for two people is for the sole purpose of pleasure and not conception(as it shouldn't have to be), if the fact remains that you both have functioning reproductive systems, you have to know the risks and act accordingly depending on your relationship, circumstances, health, etc.. It's not easy or straight-forward at all, but as we see here, neither is abortion.

I still genuinely believe that once conception has occured, it's about the woman's body AND the developing life AND the fact that it's the father's flesh and blood and he deserves a say.

(I'm rambling.)

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It would promote greater harmony through laughter, and at this point, I'm just laughing in that scary hysterical way to avoid crying for the next two weeks.

I agree.

Ok, I'll start: "I'm from Canada, they think I'm slow, eh?"

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No pro-life person has ever and I mean ever answered these questions to my satisfaction:

1. When we criminalize abortion, what is the sentence the woman will receive when she gets an abortion done illegally? How much jail time should your wives, daughters, cousins, friends get?

2. Doctors who perform illegal abortions - how will we prosecute them, what will their jail sentences be?

3. People who drive the woman to the doctor or support her actions in some concrete way in getting an illegal abortion will be aiding and abetting a serious crime. What will their jail sentences be?
I really don't know. I certainly don't want to see anyone throw in jail or any woman to potentially die from having an abortion in some back alley because it's illegal. I just think there has to be a better way..
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:39 PM   #186
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I wonder if Carlos has ventured back to the thread, read a few pages and then backed slowly out of the thread saying "Oh, HELL, no."

Nobody has illustrated their point with colourful crayons, so I'm going to venture to say yes.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:40 PM   #187
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Ok, I'll start: "I'm from Canada, they think I'm slow, eh?"


Oh man. That's one of my favorites.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:50 PM   #188
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All participants in this thread deserve the Montgomery Burns Award for Outstanding Achievement in Field of Excellence.

Wait, no.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:50 PM   #189
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I really don't know. I certainly don't want to see anyone throw in jail or any woman to potentially die from having an abortion in some back alley because it's illegal. I just think there has to be a better way..
See I asked those questions because I suspected this is the answer.

I would hazard a guess that most pro-life people want don't want to or can't imagine women or their husbands/boyfriends or doctors in jail. And this is the clear and obvious effect of criminalizing abortion, particularly if you take the position that life starts at conception. Then you are not talking about a fine and a slap on the wrist, you are talking about real, live people who will be sitting in jails for ___ years (nobody seems to be able to tell me).

So there is a kind of cognitive dissonance going on here and I feel like many who are pro-life haven't really thought much about it, if at all. And that's really the easy way out.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:04 PM   #190
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So no one ever answered our questions.

They never do.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:04 PM   #191
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See I asked those questions because I suspected this is the answer.

I would hazard a guess that most pro-life people want don't want to or can't imagine women or their husbands/boyfriends or doctors in jail. And this is the clear and obvious effect of criminalizing abortion, particularly if you take the position that life starts at conception. Then you are not talking about a fine and a slap on the wrist, you are talking about real, live people who will be sitting in jails for ___ years (nobody seems to be able to tell me).

So there is a kind of cognitive dissonance going on here and I feel like many who are pro-life haven't really thought much about it, if at all. And that's really the easy way out.
Jailing women, husbands/boyfriends, and abortion doctors would have far-reaching and devastating effects. Lives would be altered and I'm sure depression and suicide could be a risk after the fact.

The same is true for abortion. So what's the answer? I don't know..
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:06 PM   #192
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So what's the answer?
Keeping it safe and legal and providing education and access to birth control so it's only a last resort.


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Old 10-22-2008, 11:14 PM   #193
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Keeping it safe and legal and providing education and access to birth control so it's only a last resort.


Perhaps. I don't think it's always a last resort at the moment and that's my problem with it. Actually, I know it with my recent experience. It really makes me ill. Both sides ought to spend less time slamming each other as evil and more time discussing HOW we can encourage it as only ever a last resort.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:15 PM   #194
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more time discussing HOW we can encourage it as only ever a last resort.

You'll find that the pro-choice people are so much more about pregnancy prevention than the anti-choice people.
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:21 PM   #195
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You'll find that the pro-choice people are so much more about pregnancy prevention than the anti-choice people.
I'm not most "anti-choice" people. I'm just someone who's experienced this on a very real level.

As I said before, I just have a different idea of at what point you have choices and at what point you have responsibilities.
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