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Old 10-22-2008, 05:55 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by Varitek View Post
that is perhaps the heart of the argument. I think anti-choice people value quantity of life, whereas pro-choice people value quality of life.
Well the anti-choice typically want the deck stacked in their favor:

Don't provide condoms
Don't provide healthcare
Don't provide welfare
Don't give the Mother a choice even if it kills her
Don't let the child marry if it ends up being gay
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:55 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
Seeing the direction this thread has taken, this is all I have to say at this point:

Kodos disguised as Bob Dole: Abortions for all!

Crowd: Booooo!

Kodos: All right, abortions for none!

Crowd: Booooo!

Kodos: Abortions for some ... miniature American flags for all!

Crowd: Yaaaaaaaay!

xx

There. Abortion issue solved.
I think all discussions in FYM should consist entirely of Simpsons quotes
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:02 PM   #153
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I don't think of it as quantity at all.


What about adoption then?


You're absolutely right.


I didn't say make it illegal, it just still doesn't sit well with me to deny life when two people had the choice before the fact and knew all the potential consequences going into a sexual relationship, be it financial, emotional, etc etc etc. Perhaps it boils down to people FAR more responsibility for their sexual decisions and their far-reaching implications

we can agree on pretty much all of these things.

i will say, though, that i don't like the idea of "punishing" someone for having sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term. i also think that if a child is conceived through rape and/or incest, and if we are to take the view that all life is sacred or deserves a chance, then allowing abortions in those cases belies the belief that, deep down, it's not about the precious life of the child but about punishing women for having sex (since it is the women who are stuck with the child, as the men tend to leave ... nor do i think pushing people into a shotgun marriage that will likely end in divorce, if not worse, is a good thing either).

so, ultimately, while i fully understand and support people who push adoption over abortion, and are personally pro-life, i think that making abortion illegal would cause greater social harm than whatever harm there may or may not be due to it's legality.

how would you feel if part of sex education involved ways of being sexually intimate but not risking pregnancy?

it would seem to me that pro-life activists (not you, just saying in general) would be quite relieved that oral sex, mutual masturbation, and even anal sex are increasingly part of the sexual vernacular. no one's going to get pregnant with any of those activities, so why not encourage fellatio and cunninlingus? after all, it's all about the life of the child, so let's make sure that mom doesn't get pregnant by making sure that dad's semen stays outside her body. that, to me, seems a very responsible way to have sex.

or is it really just about being anti-sex?
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:04 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by toscano View Post
Well the anti-choice typically want the deck stacked in their favor:

Don't provide condoms
Don't provide healthcare
Don't provide welfare
Don't give the Mother a choice even if it kills her
Don't let the child marry if it ends up being gay
yup this is why i made the distinction, the anti-choice typically come with anti-birth control beliefs as well.

or, reject what i said before about quantity of life, and we can go back to saying it's about control of other peoples' bodies: no abortions, no birth control, and telling people when and how frequently it's ok to have sex (and who with).
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:04 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by kafrun View Post
I think all discussions in FYM should consist entirely of Simpsons quotes
It would promote greater harmony through laughter, and at this point, I'm just laughing in that scary hysterical way to avoid crying for the next two weeks.

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Old 10-22-2008, 06:05 PM   #156
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Originally Posted by Varitek View Post
yup this is why i made the distinction, the anti-choice typically come with anti-birth control beliefs as well.

or, reject what i said before about quantity of life, and we can go back to saying it's about control of other peoples' bodies: no abortions, no birth control, and telling people when and how frequently it's ok to have sex (and who with).
"Less government"
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:06 PM   #157
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Mind-meld, Irvine.

And you'd also think that if people were all anti-abortion, they'd be perfectly OK with gay sex which obviously can't produce babies to potentially abort or begrudgingly carry to term and then raise horribly.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:24 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by flossymay View Post
It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).
When it comes down to it, it really is as simple as that.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:27 PM   #159
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Yes, what constitutes a person is a very simple question, seriously.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:27 PM   #160
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When it comes down to it, it really is as simple as that.
but in cases where not doing a late term abortion may be dangerous to the mother whether or not a decision to abort is made IS deciding no matter which decision is made. Doing nothing is just as much a deliberate decision.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:28 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
we can agree on pretty much all of these things.

i will say, though, that i don't like the idea of "punishing" someone for having sex by forcing them to carry a baby to term. i also think that if a child is conceived through rape and/or incest, and if we are to take the view that all life is sacred or deserves a chance, then allowing abortions in those cases belies the belief that, deep down, it's not about the precious life of the child but about punishing women for having sex (since it is the women who are stuck with the child, as the men tend to leave ... nor do i think pushing people into a shotgun marriage that will likely end in divorce, if not worse, is a good thing either).

so, ultimately, while i fully understand and support people who push adoption over abortion, and are personally pro-life, i think that making abortion illegal would cause greater social harm than whatever harm there may or may not be due to it's legality.

how would you feel if part of sex education involved ways of being sexually intimate but not risking pregnancy?

it would seem to me that pro-life activists (not you, just saying in general) would be quite relieved that oral sex, mutual masturbation, and even anal sex are increasingly part of the sexual vernacular. no one's going to get pregnant with any of those activities, so why not encourage fellatio and cunninlingus? after all, it's all about the life of the child, so let's make sure that mom doesn't get pregnant by making sure that dad's semen stays outside her body. that, to me, seems a very responsible way to have sex.

or is it really just about being anti-sex?
This was nonsense the first time you posted it, and it's still nonsense.

Anything to avoid confronting the essential truth, as Flossmay put it, :

Quote:
It's not my right to decide if a person lives or dies. That right belongs to no man (or woman).
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:30 PM   #162
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It's not an absolute truth. It's the truth in your opinion. Don't state it as fact.
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Old 10-22-2008, 06:55 PM   #163
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No pro-life person has ever and I mean ever answered these questions to my satisfaction:

1. When we criminalize abortion, what is the sentence the woman will receive when she gets an abortion done illegally? How much jail time should your wives, daughters, cousins, friends get?

2. Doctors who perform illegal abortions - how will we prosecute them, what will their jail sentences be?

3. People who drive the woman to the doctor or support her actions in some concrete way in getting an illegal abortion will be aiding and abetting a serious crime. What will their jail sentences be?
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:03 PM   #164
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No pro-life person has ever and I mean ever answered these questions to my satisfaction:

1. When we criminalize abortion, what is the sentence the woman will receive when she gets an abortion done illegally? How much jail time should your wives, daughters, cousins, friends get?

2. Doctors who perform illegal abortions - how will we prosecute them, what will their jail sentences be?

3. People who drive the woman to the doctor or support her actions in some concrete way in getting an illegal abortion will be aiding and abetting a serious crime. What will their jail sentences be?
Do you mean in the US?

What was the position pre Roe vs Wade?

Legalised abortion on demand is extremely recent, a modern conceit.

There are tried and tested means of dealing with these matters under a legal system, as you ought to be aware.
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Old 10-22-2008, 07:08 PM   #165
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Abortion is essentially legalized in the entire Western world (you know the exceptions) and it has been so for decades.

The legal sanctions which were present 30 or 40 years ago are not instructive any longer.

I want pro-life people to start thinking about jail times and tell us what they think the appropriate punishment should be. 10, 20 years for the woman? What about the husband/boyfriend who supported her decision? How long should he be in prison for?

Let's start pounding out some concrete ideas here so that pro-life people can perhaps start to better understand the scope of criminalizing abortion. I think most of them never give much thought to who will be rotting in jail.
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