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Old 10-22-2008, 04:54 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by Varitek View Post
I'd give people who are in pain the right to decide this. Parents of course have the right to decide for their young children...unborn being an obvious subset of this.
A parent cannot decide to put their child "down" if they are already born. They can decide to stop treatment if it is apparent that there is no hope.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:56 PM   #137
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A parent cannot decide to put their child "down" if they are already born. They can decide to stop treatment if it is apparent that there is no hope.
So we should let the poor child be born so the parents can then decide to stop treatment. To what purpose?



eta: Oh wait, I walked into that. God's purpose, no doubt.
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Old 10-22-2008, 04:58 PM   #138
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So we should let the poor child be born so the parents can then decide to stop treatment. To what purpose?
To avoid pain and suffering, aren't you paying attention?
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:00 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by snowbunny00774 View Post
So we should let the poor child be born so the parents can then decide to stop treatment. To what purpose?



eta: Oh wait, I walked into that. God's purpose, no doubt.
I was replying to a previous poster who said that parents can decide to put their child down.

Everyone's life has a purpose, whether they be completely "normal" or handicapped and whether they live one day or live to be 100.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:03 PM   #140
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Because the woman is just a vessel to the pro-life people. They actually don't give a shit about the woman or the baby once it's born. It's all about the fetus with most of them.
Not all pro-life people see it that way, not at all.

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IMO, if you're against abortion, don't have one. It's beyond me why people get so worked up over whether poor people should be allowed to make their own life decisions.
Having struggled very recently in watching a close family member go through this, I know the reprecussions of the decision are far-reaching.. My huge issue is that the decision ultimately is allowed for the woman to make and not the man. I have a huge problem with this as a woman I've seen the devastation and the helplessness.

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I am pro-choice but honestly don't know if I could ever have an abortion myself. The important distinction is that I do not want anyone else making that decision for me.
I appreciate your passion in your view of the subject, and I'm just as passionate on the other end of it.. I've always firmly believed the decision lies with the man and the woman BEFORE having sex. You have to take the steps to either absolutely prevent any possibility of conception or make the decision to take responsibility if it does occur, either by caring for your own child or adoption. I have yet to hear any point that could sway me on that.

If I have a baby and a few days in realize I'm in way over my head, I have the responsibility to get my shit together. I don't have the option of terminating the child at this point.. I realize the point at which a fetus becomes a life is a huge source of debate, and for me personally, it's a life from conception Whether it has a heartbeat or not. I've not yet been pregnant, but I know this in my own heart already. Not everyone may feel it that way, so I guess therein lies the problem.

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There are plenty of living abandoned children in this world who are subject to much worse than most animals in this country. If all those people who claim to be pro-life would lend a voice to that cause then maybe they wouldn't seem like such hypocrites.
There are many people desperate to adopt, but yes, there needs to be an equal amount of focus on fixing this system. Absolutely there has to be.

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Depends on how far into the pregnancy the abortion takes place. If it's early on, the fetus is alive in the same way a plant is alive - that is, it is non-sentient life - that is, it can't feel anything, not even an abortion. Later in the pregnancy, it can.
To me it's still life

I don't know.. ask anyone who has children now, was their precious child only precious when it got to a certain number of weeks of development? That's my feeling on it.

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We can put animals down if they are in pain, but not prevent a fetus from suffering much worse pain. flossymay was right, we do treat animals better than children.
I think you're right.. I think this applies to all human suffering, but I guess euthanasia is another debate all together I tend to agree that a fetus that is almost guaranteed to suffer and ultimately die should probably be terminated.

I still don't know..
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:09 PM   #141
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The bottom line is that it's perfectly fine, perfectly natural, perfectly understandable to be against abortions.

But to say that the government should ban them based on the fact that people hold that opinion is where the pro-choice movement disagrees.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:19 PM   #142
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I too have been struggling with the decision to vote. I leaned more towards McCain months ago due specificly to his views on pro-life. Then I heard Obama talked about this same subject and I clearly changed my mind on things. They are both pro-life if you think about it closely, Obama has stated a question, "How can we reduce abortions?" and "I think no one is pro-abortion".
I agree that I don't think anyone is pro-abortion and the answer is for our society to work together and reduce abortions.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:26 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by flossymay View Post
I was replying to a previous poster who said that parents can decide to put their child down.

Everyone's life has a purpose, whether they be completely "normal" or handicapped and whether they live one day or live to be 100.
I didn't say they can decide, I said that people should be able to decide to end their lives (to elaborate, either by physician assisted suicide or simply halting treatment). And the legal extension of this is that when people have X legal right, parents have the right to decide about X for their children (although older children sometimes get some of the rights, which is why I said young children).

anyway, the people who've addressed the pain and suffering post-birth have done a better job than my fed-up posts.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:28 PM   #144
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I agree that I don't think anyone is pro-abortion and the answer is for our society to work together and reduce abortions.
I am totally pro abortion. Every cycle, I get pregnant, because condoms? pshhht. If they're not good enough for the Africans we give aid money to, they're not good enough for me. Then I go have an abortion because having a major intrusive surgical procedure is just my idea of tons of monthly fun.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:33 PM   #145
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I appreciate your passion in your view of the subject, and I'm just as passionate on the other end of it.. I've always firmly believed the decision lies with the man and the woman BEFORE having sex. You have to take the steps to either absolutely prevent any possibility of conception or make the decision to take responsibility if it does occur, either by caring for your own child or adoption. I have yet to hear any point that could sway me on that.

If I have a baby and a few days in realize I'm in way over my head, I have the responsibility to get my shit together. I don't have the option of terminating the child at this point.. I realize the point at which a fetus becomes a life is a huge source of debate, and for me personally, it's a life from conception Whether it has a heartbeat or not. I've not yet been pregnant, but I know this in my own heart already. Not everyone may feel it that way, so I guess therein lies the problem.


i would feel baldly for a child who's parents -- or, as is likely in this case, the single mother -- gave birth out of begrudging obligation.

it seems to me that a child shouldn't bear a lifetime of being resented because of the impetuousness of his/her parents.

the best answer, of course, is that every pregnancy is a wanted pregnancy, and i think you and i both agree on that. and i think we'd both agree that comprehensive sex education and access to birth control are good solutions, and that abortion is a worst case scenario.

but making abortion illegal will not make all children wanted and adored by their parent(s).

in order to make a really, really strained argument against same-sex marriage, some are resorting to talking about the magical alchemy that happens when children are reared by "a mother and a father who love each other." i think one way to make sure that many kids don't have a father is to make abortion illegal.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:36 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by flossymay View Post
Everyone's life has a purpose, whether they be completely "normal" or handicapped and whether they live one day or live to be 100.

or is it because life has value, i want to protect my child from horrific suffering.

i am also speaking of birth defects many degrees beyond Down's Syndrome. i do admire Sarah Palin for having Trigg. i really do.

there are serious, serious diseases and birth defects that can make a child's short life be a nightmare.

in such a situation, to spare my child from agony, yes i would have an abortion (were i a woman, obvy).
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:39 PM   #147
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I am totally pro abortion. Every cycle, I get pregnant, because condoms? pshhht. If they're not good enough for the Africans we give aid money to, they're not good enough for me. Then I go have an abortion because having a major intrusive surgical procedure is just my idea of tons of monthly fun.


this reminds me of one of Sarah Silverman's better moments:

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"Quite frankly, I think it's a good law," she wrote about a mandatory 24-hour waiting period for abortions. "I was going to get an abortion the other day. I totally wanted an abortion—and it turns out I was just thirsty."
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:42 PM   #148
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or is it because life has value.
that is perhaps the heart of the argument. I think anti-choice people value quantity of life, whereas pro-choice people value quality of life.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:52 PM   #149
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Seeing the direction this thread has taken, this is all I have to say at this point:

Kodos disguised as Bob Dole: Abortions for all!

Crowd: Booooo!

Kodos: All right, abortions for none!

Crowd: Booooo!

Kodos: Abortions for some ... miniature American flags for all!

Crowd: Yaaaaaaaay!

xx

There. Abortion issue solved.
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Old 10-22-2008, 05:54 PM   #150
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that is perhaps the heart of the argument. I think anti-choice people value quantity of life, whereas pro-choice people value quality of life.
I don't think of it as quantity at all.

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i would feel baldly for a child who's parents -- or, as is likely in this case, the single mother -- gave birth out of begrudging obligation.
What about adoption then?

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but making abortion illegal will not make all children wanted and adored by their parent(s).
You're absolutely right.

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i think one way to make sure that many kids don't have a father is to make abortion illegal.
I didn't say make it illegal, it just still doesn't sit well with me to deny life when two people had the choice before the fact and knew all the potential consequences going into a sexual relationship, be it financial, emotional, etc etc etc. Perhaps it boils down to people FAR more responsibility for their sexual decisions and their far-reaching implications
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