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Old 02-20-2014, 09:41 PM   #2
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It's a shame that no matter which side wins, there really isn't anything positive in sight. I don't see much light at the end of this tunnel.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:15 PM   #3
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It is an outrage for any government in any country to slaughter their own citizens like fish in a barrel for merely demanding fairness.
Ukraine, Taiwan, Venezuela among others in turmoil with their own governments should be enough for the world to take notice and question these corrupt governments.
People do not gather this way for no reason; these governments are now under the world's microscope.
These corrupt governments had better think through their actions and open their eyes.

Cлава Україна!
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:51 PM   #4
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To criticise the Ukrainian government is all well and good, but when you are saying things like 'Cлава Україна' are you at all aware of the nature of much of the protestors? A good portion of them are unapologetic Nazis.

(I have no idea why you mentioned Venezuela here at all, that's a completely different kettle of fish and not at all similar to Ukraine)
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:22 PM   #5
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I am very much aware of the story of what is happening in Ukraine. I am a first generation American of parents who defected from Ukraine and all of my relatives outside from my immediate family reside there.
How about you?

Anyway... a kettle of fish is a kettle of fish that shouldn't be killed for complaining. No matter where that kettle is located.
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:25 PM   #6
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I'm Belarusian, so to some degree the events will be of significant interest to me.

(I'm not exactly sure where you're taking the 'kettle of fish' bit, though, I'm assuming you're referring to what I had said before re: Vza, which is essentially a case of the poor against the wealthy but I don't want to take the subject that why since this thread is about Ukraine)
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Old 02-20-2014, 11:42 PM   #7
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There are deeper issues than the generalized "poor against the wealthy" in Venezuela. For example, why was Leopoldo Lopez arrested for murder charges? People there were killed for protesting the government, but of course in a dictatorship that's allowed so charges were dropped.

Just as in Ukraine, people are not allowed the freedom to speak out.
Check this out: https://yrj8usi8t5zbg6zcefy4.r.world...ela-en-ingles/
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:57 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by AllIWantIs View Post
There are deeper issues than the generalized "poor against the wealthy" in Venezuela.
On a very basic level, this is precisely what it is. All you need to is note the general class of those supporting the government and those opposing it. There are, of course, many problems in the country (I'm not going to uncritically stick up for it, I'm admittedly a bit sceptical too) but they are all connected to the battle between the poor and the wealthy.

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For example, why was Leopoldo Lopez arrested for murder charges?
Don't think they were 'murder' charges, just 'inciting crime and homicide.' Yet this was a guy who has been inciting action against the government for a while now. I'm fairly sure these charges were dropped recently, he even turned himself in and it seems that he was treated quite well in comparison to how he treated a minister during the 2002 coup attempt.

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People there were killed for protesting the government, but of course in a dictatorship that's allowed so charges were dropped.
Only 6 people have died so far, and one of those being a pro-government journalist and another a police officer. Furthermore, an intelligence official was arrested for being involved in some of the deaths.

And if this government constitutes a dictatorship despite winning elections fairly (even a former US president regarded the election process as one of the best in the world), then what does this make the pre-1999 governments? This doesn't even go into the communes prevalent throughout the country. In addition, a dictatorship typically doesn't allow staunchly opposing media to dominate.

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Just as in Ukraine, people are not allowed the freedom to speak out.
Check this out:
This site you linked was pretty familiar to me, I realised an example of their reporting was featured here. The Venezuelan private media (and to a lesser extent, the West) has had a history of staunchly trying to remove this particular government so I'm not sure that they'll give you anything impartial. I'm sceptical about the compilation of videos you linked.

Anyway, this thread is about Ukraine and I hope you don't wish to derail it because neither do I.
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Old 02-21-2014, 01:48 AM   #9
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A virtual propaganda war is less deadly, however, even 1 person should not die for protesting.
There is a difference when it comes to the numbers in carnage between Ukraine and Venezuela, but there should be no deaths when it all begins as a peaceful protest.

The Ukraine protest has turned into a civil war and the reason for that is clear without propaganda.
I stand by my first post, and it is ok for you to disagree that Venezuela should be mentioned up there.
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Old 02-21-2014, 03:32 AM   #10
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Oh yeah, I definitely agree, protest deaths on either side are awful no matter how you look at it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:10 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
I'm Belarusian, so to some degree the events will be of significant interest to me.
I'm going to Minsk in about 6 weeks, was originally planning to double it up with Kiev, but... might hold on the latter for now. Belarus in relation to this is pretty interesting - it's seems, just anecdotally from buzzing around online, there's absolutely no sympathy for the Ukraine protests. Not talking about Belarusian media, which you would naturally expect to be 150% against, but various comments and forums where Belarusians are chiming in and usually arguing with other EU-state people who are pushing the 'Belarus Next!' line.

Belief in it not happening there seems to be combo of (a) Lukashenko "isn't really that bad/mostly media beat up", (b) no immediate political flashpoints (people have a lot of various low level minor grumbles, but there's no singular rallying major issue), (c) and even if they did, apathy rules in Belarus, (d) economy is much better than Ukraine, and has recovered comparatively well post 2008 crash vs. many neighbouring 'western' economies, standard of living is pretty good, (e) happily identify closely with Russia and don't care for joining the EU for the 'privilege' of being able to collect garbage and clean toilets in London. (f) not the same internal divisions (east/west of the country, wealthy/poor) as Ukraine - and that's the real story there, (g) desperately don't want civil unrest (i.e. consider themselves more civilised than that), (h) and know that if that did happen, bloodbath from Day 1.
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Old 02-21-2014, 05:12 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
I'm going to Minsk in about 6 weeks, was originally planning to double it up with Kiev, but... might hold on the latter for now. Belarus in relation to this is pretty interesting - it's seems, just anecdotally from buzzing around online, there's absolutely no sympathy for the Ukraine protests. Not talking about Belarusian media, which you would naturally expect to be 150% against, but various comments and forums where Belarusians are chiming in and usually arguing with other EU-state people who are pushing the 'Belarus Next!' line.
Hope you enjoy Minsk, it's my hometown after all and although it's probably not 100% tourist friendly at the moment you should have a good time. Where have you been looking around online? Because with the places I visit (message boards/news sites) there's usually a fair bit of sympathy towards Euromaidan. Though I don't doubt there'd be some scepticism towards these events, since they all saw what happened with the Orange Revolution and how it seemingly became a failure in the end (probably an easy judgment to make based on how Yanukovych won the previous election). I do think that among Belarusian youth that there's some interest towards moving to the West in the same fashion those of Ukraine.

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Belief in it not happening there seems to be combo of (a) Lukashenko "isn't really that bad/mostly media beat up", (b) no immediate political flashpoints (people have a lot of various low level minor grumbles, but there's no singular rallying major issue), (c) and even if they did, apathy rules in Belarus, (d) economy is much better than Ukraine, and has recovered comparatively well post 2008 crash vs. many neighbouring 'western' economies, standard of living is pretty good, (e) happily identify closely with Russia and don't care for joining the EU for the 'privilege' of being able to collect garbage and clean toilets in London. (f) not the same internal divisions (east/west of the country, wealthy/poor) as Ukraine - and that's the real story there, (g) desperately don't want civil unrest (i.e. consider themselves more civilised than that), (h) and know that if that did happen, bloodbath from Day 1
Don't see anything off the mark about this, though I might add I'd be really surprised if more people consider Lukashenko's existence to be more positive as opposed to negative, as he really is quite an asshole. With that said, I don't particularly like the opposition either and if you placed any one of them into presidency I just can't see anything really being that much better. I also don't necessarily think any sort of Euromaidan like events would trigger a bloodbath to the degree Kiev is experiencing right now but the past has proven that the Belarusian riot police are liberal in the use of their batons against protestors. But really, you'll get a chance to find out what people generally think when you visit the place.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:38 AM   #13
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I have no idea what's going on, but I saw some horrific pictures on Twitter yesterday.

I really should spend some more time being thankful for the fact I live in Australia.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:59 AM   #14
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With the current government in power, you never know what might happen, Cobbs.
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Old 02-21-2014, 08:18 AM   #15
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I can say with absolutely certainty that nothing remotely close to what is going on in Ukraine will happen here.
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