"I Am A Ukrainian"

[deep]

One option, Ukraine may just take this lying down

And hope Putin stops here.

 

[digitize]

Crimea voted to join Russia with... wait for it... 95.5% in agreement.

BBC News - Crimea referendum: Voters 'back Russia union'

The vote was widely boycotted, so the 95.5% number can't be ascribed to vote rigging (I guess?).

 

[Vlad n U 2]

95.5% sounds overly excessive, but I still think a majority of Crimeans would've voted to join Russia anyway.

 

[Aygo]

In all this process, I just love EU (the US toy) opinion.
Kosovo secession was fine, even if some countries do not recognize it. Montenegro was fine.
The provisional ukrainian government which wasn't elected by anyone and whose members (that include 5 assume neonazis) was chosen by the "Sparta method"... Was fine.
And a referendum towards a territory that Kruschev (which was ukrainian) just gave as an object to Ukraine... Is illegal.
EU loves referendums... Not. Most of its countries weren't asked by referendum to join EU or the Euro, and those who did said "no" and released several referendums until the EU obtained the wanted "yes". When Greece threatened with a referendum to its permanence in the Euro in 2011(?), Prime-Minister Papandreou got its head chopped and got his government replaced by a bunch of non-elected technocrats from Goldman Sachs and chosen by the EU. When Catalonia or Basque Country or Scotland leave their threats of a referendum for their independence the EU says that the doors will be closed for these territories.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

It's not at all an unpredictable stance from them, I think many people who don't resort to the black and whites and the good/evils will see that this reaction was pretty expected. Crimea's entry into Russia isn't something that benefits them.

 

[elevated_u2_fan]

Did I hear correctly that there wasn't even an option on the ballot to remain as part of the Ukraine? That sounds legit....

 

[Vlad n U 2]

There was an option which asked if Crimea wanted to be restored as per the 1992 constitution, that constitution gives the Crimean parliament the choice to establish relations with who it wishes.

 

[Axver]

Or in other words, you could choose from "Russia" or "possibly Russia".

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Pretty good round up from well known enemy of western power, Stratfor:http://http://www.stratfor.com/weekly/russia-examines-its-options-responding-ukraine

 

[Vlad n U 2]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1c6eYId4fPE

Svoboda members coming into the office of the director of a Ukrainian TV channel, and beat him, calling him a 'moskal' which is a slur used by Ukrainians re: Russians. A Ukrainian paper suggests that they took the guy into a vehicle and drove him off into an undisclosed location after the video stops, predictably.

 

[Aygo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1c6eYId4fPE

Svoboda members coming into the office of the director of a Ukrainian TV channel, and beat him, calling him a 'moskal' which is a slur used by Ukrainians re: Russians. A Ukrainian paper suggests that they took the guy into a vehicle and drove him off into an undisclosed location after the video stops, predictably.

Also, the provisional ukrainian government says that Putin is acting like the nazi Germany.
Wait... A government that includes 5 assumed neonazis called "nazi" to the objector?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I'm tired of the assumption that Putin is a fascist of any sort, it's just a lazy observation, he may do laughably little about the fascist/nationalist presence in his own country but that in itself is not enough to render him as one.

Yatsenyuk does come off as a bit of an uncharismatic, dull clown. Sounds like a Eastern European incarnation of Michael Stipe if he was a bored, hapless maths teacher too.

 

[larry5mullen]

I'm tired of the assumption that Putin is a fascist of any sort,

The guy just invaded another country an annexed part of it. The last time that happened in Europe, it was during a war called World War II, and the person doing the invading and annexing was named Hitler.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

That doesn't suggest he's a fascist though.

 

[Aygo]

The guy just invaded another country an annexed part of it. The last time that happened in Europe, it was during a war called World War II, and the person doing the invading and annexing was named Hitler.

Crimea was incorporated in Ukraine in 1954. It was an offer, but it was annexed as well. And as you see it occured after the WWII.

 

[U2girl]

The guy just invaded another country an annexed part of it. The last time that happened in Europe, it was during a war called World War II, and the person doing the invading and annexing was named Hitler.

And there's no guarantee he won't invade all the way to Kiev or go for other ex Soviet Union countries.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Yeah, nah, honestly, I doubt he's eager at all to start a fist fight or anything past an obligatory flexing of his biceps.

 

[digitize]

I highly doubt that Putin will try to invade places where the majority of the population would be hostile to him. I also highly doubt that he will try to invade anywhere in NATO, since that would technically obligate the United States to declare war on Russia.

 

[larry5mullen]

I highly doubt that Putin will try to invade places where the majority of the population would be hostile to him. I also highly doubt that he will try to invade anywhere in NATO, since that would technically obligate the United States to declare war on Russia.

Well, that was certainly the reasoning with regard to Hitler in Munich in 1938. Neville Chamberlain and "Peace In Our Time". NOT! I mean, after all, those areas of Czechoslovakia that Hitler took had large ethnic German populations. Hitler wouldn't dare invade places where the majority of the population would be hostile to him?
There are reports that over 100,000 Russian troops are massed on the Ukrainian border positioned for invasion and just awaiting orders. The provinces of Luhansk and Donetsk have majority Russian native speakers with 69% and 75% speaking Russian as their native language respectively. Kharkiv is split down the middle. These three provinces of Eastern Ukraine have a lot of the countries industrial capacity and large numbers of Russian troops are just across the border with tanks, artillery, and other armored vehicles massed in possible preparation for an invasion.
Putin said a few weeks ago that he had no plans to take the Crimea. Then he did. Ukraine is certainly not acting like there is no crises as they try to move forces from western Ukraine towards the east. Russian forces shot and killed a Ukrainian soldier in Crimea yesterday.

 

[Diemen]

Oh, hi Steve.

 

[larry5mullen]

Crimea was incorporated in Ukraine in 1954. It was an offer, but it was annexed as well. And as you see it occured after the WWII.

That's like saying Mississippi traded Alabama a few acres of farm land. Ukraine was not a country in 1954 and nor was the Russian Federation. That all happened inside the Soviet Union. Prior to the formation of the Soviet Union, the Crimea had never been consider distinctly separate from other parts of Southern Ukraine. The only time that it was consider separate from Ukraine was from 1920 to 1954.

Ukraine became an independent state and a member of the United Nations in the early 1990s. The United Nations recognized the territorial integrity of Ukraine in the 1990s. In addition, in 1994, in exchange for Ukraine giving up several thousand nuclear weapons that it inherited from the defunct Soviet Union to the Russian Federation, Russia, the United States, and United Kingdom signed a treaty recognizing and respecting the territorial integrity of Ukraine including that Crimea was apart of Ukraine.

It should also be noted that in free and fair referendum in 1991, CRIMEA voted to leave the Soviet Union and be apart of the the newly formed independent Ukraine as well as agreeing to Ukraine constitution that had specific rules stating that any provinces that ever succeeded from Ukraine would require the approval of the entire country and not just that individual province.

So bottom line, this is the first invasion and annexation of territory by one independent sovereign state against another in Europe since World War II. Ukraine in 1954 was apart of the Soviet Union. It was not an independent country in way shape or form at that time.

This is naked evil aggression on the part of Putin. Its sad because many believed this type action, annexing countries and changing borders with raw military power was over in Europe. Putins actions remind us that military power and old style invasion and annexation is alive and well, just as it was centuries ago. The idea that the 21st century was somehow different from past centuries is over, at least when it comes to global politics.

Putin is not completely alone though. Assad's Syria, Venezuala and Cuba all support Russia's invasion and annexation of Crimea. What wonderful friends Putin has.

 

[Diemen]

If only there were a palindromic UN resolution one could quote in this circumstance.

 

[Popmartijn]

So bottom line, this is the first invasion and annexation of territory by one independent sovereign state against another in Europe since World War II.

Just a reminder. Cyprus is also part of Europe. And 1974 is also after WWII.

 

[Irvine511]

let's invade! it always works out so well for us!

 

[anitram]

Seriously, what is it that Steve would like us (i.e. NATO, USA) to do in this situation?

 

[Earnie Shavers]

Oil.

 

[Irvine511]

Oil.

that is one thing that has been consistent all these years.

STING Steve larry5mullen believes that oil is absolutely a resource worth going to war over, and in fact, we should go to war in order to keep it freely and cheaply flowing.

the honesty is refreshing.

 

[Diemen]

the honesty is refreshing.

The "register under a different IP and squeak by for a couple weeks before being banned again" is not. At some point you think he would get the picture.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

I highly doubt that Putin will try to invade places where the majority of the population would be hostile to him. I also highly doubt that he will try to invade anywhere in NATO, since that would technically obligate the United States to declare war on Russia.

Making an exception for eastern Ukraine, though.

Oh, hi Steve.

He's like one of those non-giving up guys.

 

[digitize]

I get the impression that he won't go after Eastern Ukraine, but my knowledge on the issue is limited. You think that he will, Vlad?