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Old 03-08-2014, 11:30 AM   #121
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So nice to know we've got a resident expert on the Ukraine's interests.
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Old 03-08-2014, 04:05 PM   #122
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Jeff, Ukraine needs Russia like a fish needs a bicycle. A neighboring country's power never obligates a smaller country to submit to its influence and desire. After all, take a look at individual countries that have been split down the middle. West Germany did fantastically without East Germany

Its called the Free Market Jeff. Russia needs to compete if it wants to keep its trade ties in place. Bullying and invading your neighbor is not a good way to market yourself or secure a greater market share. You can't expect to keep the customer coming back when you beat and rape them. Its in the best interest of that customer to pursue other options.
NATO from its inception has been a defensive alliance that believes in democracy, human rights, and international law. It has never been a threat to Russia or the former Soviet Union. It has only been a threat to Russia and the Soviet Union's capability to illegally invade and take what it wants from Europe through brute military force. NATO has process for expanding and countries seeking to join NATO must meet multiple requirments in terms of democracy, freedom of the press, and stability before they are admitted to NATO. In that sense, NATO membership for countries west of Russia is a good thing because it is a sign that these countries are becoming more democratic, stable and prosperous, which means they are much less likely to be a threat to any country including Russia.

Jeff, NATO and the European Union are not pressuring other countries to join. Countries join these organizations if they decide to. Even then, they are not automatically admitted and must meet many standards and the approval of all NATO and European Union countries before they are allowed to join. That is a huge contrast to what Russia is trying to do with former Soviet Republics.

Jeff, its true that Ukraine has massive economic problems. But its grossly inaccurate to suggest that Russia is some how an equal in being able to help the Ukraine to the EU/United States. Russia's annual GDP is about $2 Trillion, while the combined EU/United States GDP is north of $32 Trillion.

That would be great and can certainly happen, but if Russia does not cooperate and Ukraine chooses to dump Russia and fully link with the West, then it can indeed do that. The choice is Ukraine's. Ukraine must be allowed to decide what is best for its future, something that Russia has been trying to stop for years now. Its not impossible for the Ukraine to survive without Russia. Saying so grossly overstates Russia's economic strength.
Russia doesn't need Ukraine. So, we can say the same about the EU. Why is the EU so desperate for Ukraine to join it?
I would've love to watch the West Germany to succeed so well without the 1953 haircut and without having payed all the forgiven war debt. In fact, it's funny that, despite all the corrupt mistakes, Greece is under a choking German dictat of debt (many of that illegitimate) that will never be payed. But when, recently, greeks claimed that they may demand back the €162 billions from the II WW that Germany never payed back... The EU and Germany say that's unlikely to happen. Would Germany have succeed so well without that? Of course not.

So, when the USA (many times under the NATO umbrella) invades other countries for the most ridiculous reasons... That's Free Market Economy too? I'd love to hear what Margaret Thatcher and Angela Merkel, the two most powerful women in Europe of the past 50 years, and the two biggest defenders of Free Market Economy (only for the benefit of their own countries, obviously), would say about it.

True. But Russia has a public debt of 11% of its GDP. The US has 74%.

I must remind you that Ukraine had general elections just a few months ago and that those elections were recognized by the international community as normal. You and I may not agree with the results of those elections, but they existed and they legitimated a parliament and a government. I also must remind you that Yanukovich's party had weaker results in the West, where the protests started, but he had expressive majorities in the "russophone" East as well as in Crimea.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:13 AM   #123
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Russia doesn't need Ukraine. So, we can say the same about the EU. Why is the EU so desperate for Ukraine to join it?
.
Well, who invaded the Ukraine, the EU or Russia? Answer: RUSSIA So who is acting needy and desperately when it comes to the Ukraine? RUSSIA


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True. But Russia has a public debt of 11% of its GDP. The US has 74%.
Does not change the fact that the USA has the worlds most productive economy year after year as well as the third highest standard of living in the world. Russia has a standard of living comparable to Cuba or Mexico, and their economy is heavily dependent on oil and natural gas exports.

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I must remind you that Ukraine had general elections just a few months ago and that those elections were recognized by the international community as normal. You and I may not agree with the results of those elections, but they existed and they legitimated a parliament and a government. I also must remind you that Yanukovich's party had weaker results in the West, where the protests started, but he had expressive majorities in the "russophone" East as well as in Crimea.
I remind you that Ukraine has elections scheduled for May 30 which will likely have the highest turnout in the nations history and will bury whatever legitimacy previous elections are alleged to of had. If you thought Putin, Yanukovich, and Russia were unpopular in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago, wait till you see the results of the May 30 election.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:07 AM   #124
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Well, who invaded the Ukraine, the EU or Russia? Answer: RUSSIA So who is acting needy and desperately when it comes to the Ukraine? RUSSIA




Does not change the fact that the USA has the worlds most productive economy year after year as well as the third highest standard of living in the world. Russia has a standard of living comparable to Cuba or Mexico, and their economy is heavily dependent on oil and natural gas exports.



I remind you that Ukraine has elections scheduled for May 30 which will likely have the highest turnout in the nations history and will bury whatever legitimacy previous elections are alleged to of had. If you thought Putin, Yanukovich, and Russia were unpopular in Ukraine a couple of weeks ago, wait till you see the results of the May 30 election.
Russia is doing what the USA did many times before. It's not who invaded who. Is who needs who. And the EU needs both Ukraine's political and manpower support, as it needs Russian's raw-material and capital. Have you wondered why many big european corporations have been displacing and lauching products in the russian market, buying russian enterprises... And having injections of russian money? Thus, have you wonderd why we haven't heard an important word from David Cameron or the UK? Russia is in a position of strength exibition, because Putin knows "he's in the position to do so".

I want to see what happens if China's growth cools down - if it freezes - and if it stops buying and investing in US's public debt. I must remind you that China has already demonstrated its support to Russia in this Ukrainian question.
Plus... Russia dependent on gas and petrol export? It's the opposite. Europe is dependent on Russia's gas export. The Eastern Europe countries are (Portugal and Spain, for instance, buy it to North Africa countries like Algeria and Morocco, not to Russia). Germany is dependent on Russia's and Ukraine's gas export.


I repeat, in case you didn't read it. There were general elections a few months ago. Elections that were recognized as normal, without irregularities by the international community. Yanukovich has weaker results in the West, but had strong majorities in the East and that was enough for him to win. I repeat: it was just a few months ago. You can't say the same about May's elections, where they were decided by a provisional government based on the parliament's constitution and that has in it 5 neo-nazi Ministers from Svoboda. And don't come to me again with the "Putin's worse than them". I was reading more about Svoboda and asking to the ukrainians I know here, and the greek Golden Dawn are a mere group of good boys compared to the Svoboda.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:14 AM   #125
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Based on what I've read (obviously I can't comment from the ground) it does seem that Golden Dawn could only dream of having the vast increase in influence that Svoboda and Right Sector have had over the past year, hell, try six months. But at the same time the Ukrainian resistance is almost non existent in certain places (ie. the country's west) whereas in Greece I think it's fair to say the opposition to Golden Dawn is quite substantial (and there is at least some sort of class consciousness present).
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:13 AM   #126
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Russia is doing what the USA did many times before. It's not who invaded who. Is who needs who. And the EU needs both Ukraine's political and manpower support, as it needs Russian's raw-material and capital. Have you wondered why many big european corporations have been displacing and lauching products in the russian market, buying russian enterprises... And having injections of russian money? Thus, have you wonderd why we haven't heard an important word from David Cameron or the UK? Russia is in a position of strength exibition, because Putin knows "he's in the position to do so".
Natural Gas and Oil or products that are found all around the world, not just in Russia. Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Kuwait, Barhain, Qatar, all US Allies, plus the United States and Canada, COMBINED, have levels of oil and natural gas that dwarf Russia's.



The United States did not launch an unprovoked invasion of another country. That is what Russia has done in Ukraine. No one in the Crimea was killed or attacked, no ethnic Russia, nobody. The idea that Russian forces are in Crimea to protect from fascists and Nazi's is a total joke.

Yes, Europe does have greater business ties with Russia than North America, but that does not mean that Europe needs Russia to somehow survive. The world is full with many other energy options and business opportunities. NATO does not need Russia and is ready to defend Europe, politically, economically, and if need be with its military!

If Putin and Russia were in a position of STRENGTH, then why are they invading the Ukraine? They have moved to military options because every other tool they have used in the Ukraine has flopped. The Russians are SCARED. Ukraine is moving to the west and the Russians are afraid of losing their influence there for good! Russia has invaded Ukraine not out of strength, but because the hand they were playing there was soooo weak!

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I want to see what happens if China's growth cools down - if it freezes - and if it stops buying and investing in US's public debt. I must remind you that China has already demonstrated its support to Russia in this Ukrainian question.
Plus... Russia dependent on gas and petrol export? It's the opposite. Europe is dependent on Russia's gas export. The Eastern Europe countries are (Portugal and Spain, for instance, buy it to North Africa countries like Algeria and Morocco, not to Russia). Germany is dependent on Russia's and Ukraine's gas export.
China has stated that Russia has put it in a tough position and has taken a very neutral tone on the issue of Ukraine. As for the US and China, it is China that has more to lose from the relationship as China's exports to the USA far outnumber USA exports to China, and China's USA exports are a much higher percentage of its annual GDP. In addition, 90% of US National debt is purchased by entities other than China.

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I repeat, in case you didn't read it. There were general elections a few months ago. Elections that were recognized as normal, without irregularities by the international community. Yanukovich has weaker results in the West, but had strong majorities in the East and that was enough for him to win. I repeat: it was just a few months ago. You can't say the same about May's elections, where they were decided by a provisional government based on the parliament's constitution and that has in it 5 neo-nazi Ministers from Svoboda. And don't come to me again with the "Putin's worse than them". I was reading more about Svoboda and asking to the ukrainians I know here, and the greek Golden Dawn are a mere group of good boys compared to the Svoboda.
Yanukovich has no future in Ukraine at all. Putin's puppet left the country. Ukraine has elections prepared for May 30 and rest assured, Russia will be dealt a major blow in those elections.
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Old 03-09-2014, 11:57 AM   #127
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NATO does not need Russia and is ready to defend Europe, politically, economically, and if need be with its military!
I guess I shouldn't be shocked at how quickly some people are willing to go to war and yet I am. Rah rah rah!
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:07 PM   #128
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I guess I shouldn't be shocked at how quickly some people are willing to go to war and yet I am. Rah rah rah!
I only stated that NATO will defend itself if attacked. The Rah Rah Rah's belong to the Putin side. The only country that has invaded another and is threatening to change international borders just as Hitler did in 1938 is Russia.
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Old 03-09-2014, 01:20 PM   #129
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Natural Gas and Oil or products that are found all around the world, not just in Russia. Saudi Arabia, United Arab Emirates, Iraq, Kuwait, Barhain, Qatar, all US Allies, plus the United States and Canada, COMBINED, have levels of oil and natural gas that dwarf Russia's.



The United States did not launch an unprovoked invasion of another country. That is what Russia has done in Ukraine. No one in the Crimea was killed or attacked, no ethnic Russia, nobody. The idea that Russian forces are in Crimea to protect from fascists and Nazi's is a total joke.

Yes, Europe does have greater business ties with Russia than North America, but that does not mean that Europe needs Russia to somehow survive. The world is full with many other energy options and business opportunities. NATO does not need Russia and is ready to defend Europe, politically, economically, and if need be with its military!

If Putin and Russia were in a position of STRENGTH, then why are they invading the Ukraine? They have moved to military options because every other tool they have used in the Ukraine has flopped. The Russians are SCARED. Ukraine is moving to the west and the Russians are afraid of losing their influence there for good! Russia has invaded Ukraine not out of strength, but because the hand they were playing there was soooo weak!



China has stated that Russia has put it in a tough position and has taken a very neutral tone on the issue of Ukraine. As for the US and China, it is China that has more to lose from the relationship as China's exports to the USA far outnumber USA exports to China, and China's USA exports are a much higher percentage of its annual GDP. In addition, 90% of US National debt is purchased by entities other than China.



Yanukovich has no future in Ukraine at all. Putin's puppet left the country. Ukraine has elections prepared for May 30 and rest assured, Russia will be dealt a major blow in those elections.
WHO SAID THAT? Jeeeesus!
I'm not going to reply to your comments anymore in this thread.
As I said earlier, I wouldn't be surprised if you're from one of those Eastern Europe countries (eventually Poland, Hungary, Slovakia...) that were in the ex-URSS as were brainwashed just as it entered the EU, which would explain the black-white/good-evil/borderline-type logic on your comments, reinforced by a distorted reading of the other users' posts and information of this thread.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:45 PM   #130
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Russia wants to have the people vote?

OK, let's have a vote in Chechnya.
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Old 03-09-2014, 03:48 PM   #131
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^

Yes, and that's not the only Russian republic which would like an opportunity to vote.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:17 PM   #132
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WHO SAID THAT? Jeeeesus!
.
Its been talked about for days, and said by Russians, Putin, and others. Any talk of Fascism in this crises is simply a smoke screen to make Russia seem even handed. The only anti-democratic forces in this conflict are the Russians. Yes, they are going to have vote in Crimea in a few days at the point of a foreign gun. There is no threat to ethnic Russians in the crimea and even if there was, it would be a job for Ukrainian police to deal with, not the Russian military!
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:41 PM   #133
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"I Am A Ukrainian"

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Any talk of Fascism in this crises is simply a smoke screen to make Russia seem even handed.
Blatantly false. One can decry the Russians' aggression while at the same time acknowledging that there are troubling reports of fascists on the Ukrainian side. Acknowledging that there are fascist elements on the Ukrainian side does not necessarily make one pro-Russian.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:49 PM   #134
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I'm not sure how much more convincing anyone needs that actual fascists are a prominent fixture in Ukraine's current political sphere, there is ample proof and anybody who's trying to deny it as 'oh that's just what the Russians are saying!' is deluding themselves. The future is unclear but the threat is real.

I've known of people who have fled the country (eastern part) to family in Russia simply because of that threat and that a lot of things have 'stopped' ie. schools + stores, and that for them at least they don't feel safe about stepping outside.

Basically, Russia's intervention in Crimea is only half the story about what's going on in Ukraine right now but you're unlikely to hear about it outside of blogs/news sources from people in that general Eastern European region. Lots of tension, back-and-forth in a fair few major eastern cities.
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Old 03-09-2014, 09:02 PM   #135
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Its been talked about for days, and said by Russians, Putin, and others. Any talk of Fascism in this crises is simply a smoke screen to make Russia seem even handed. The only anti-democratic forces in this conflict are the Russians. Yes, they are going to have vote in Crimea in a few days at the point of a foreign gun. There is no threat to ethnic Russians in the crimea and even if there was, it would be a job for Ukrainian police to deal with, not the Russian military!
Ok, go do your volunteering job in FIDELITAS or in JOBBIK or something like that and don't bother replying to my comments from now on. I'm not a fan of arguing with walls.
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