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Old 03-05-2014, 05:46 PM   #91
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A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.

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Paet: "All the evidence shows that people who were killed by snipers from both sides, policemen and people from the streets, that they were the same snipers killing people from both sides. ... Some photos that showed it is the same handwriting, the same type of bullets, and it is really disturbing that now the new coalition they don't want to investigate what exactly happened. So there is now stronger and stronger understanding that behind the snipers, it was not Yanukovych, but it was somebody from the new coalition."
Ashton: "I think we do want to investigate. I mean, I didn’t pick that up, that’s interesting. Gosh."
Paet: "It already discreditates (sic) this new coalition."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)
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Old 03-05-2014, 08:18 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)
I was going to post that, but I didn't know if it was real of fake. Now I see that it was confirmed as authentic.
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Old 03-06-2014, 01:32 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
A leaked conversation between Estonian foreign minister and the EU foreign policy chief.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=ZEgJ0oo3OA8

(This is confirmed to be authentic, yes)
Alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant compared to Russia's illegal unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. The only one behaving like a fascist is Putin.
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Old 03-06-2014, 02:15 AM   #94
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I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he wants to replicate/return to the Soviet Union, but agreed that he/they think they gave way too much up (power, prestige, territory) and will try and claw some back wherever possible. There are semi-legit strategic motives (they genuinely see the EU and NATO as a threat – you could disagree or think they’re paranoid, but pushing back on both whenever they can they feel is a legit, important thing to do for their own security) and purely political motives, i.e. regaining territory and influence, especially while giving the EU/NATO/US a bloody nose, obviously strengthens Putin. There are also – as there always are – a number of other things going on that surely are all now (back) on the negotiating table. Syria, Iran etc. Who is in more of a position of strength at the negotiating table right now? I’d say it’s definitely Russia.
NATO is and has always been a defensive Alliance and has never maintained the number of military formations necessary to truly be an offensive threat to the Soviet Union or Russia. The same cannot be said for Moscow vs. NATO and the rest of Europe. The only thing NATO threatens is Russia's ability to reconquer new independent states in Europe. That's certainly not a bad thing and has helped keep much of Europe at peace.

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My mistake, I did mean to write ‘lower’ gas prices, not raise. Regardless, I would think that deflating Russia’s economy and thus Putin would only lead him to push further in ways like this to maintain his standing and power. I think he’d play it fairly easily (for the home audience) and send Russia more insular, more unpredictable, more aggressive. Economically weakening Russia is a response, but not a solution.
History shows that when there is no price to pay for illegal actions, they will certainly be repeated and the actions will often become even more brazen. Russia was far less willing to interfere with the West and other countries in the 1990s when Russia was economically weak.

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So what if a Crimean referendum is held – and declared by all independent (EU, US, UN) inspectors to be free and fair – and it comes in at, say, 80% in favour of joining Russia? Hard to ignore. Tie it with further guarantees on remaining Ukrainian territorial sovereignty (traded off against how and when or to what level Ukraine could or couldn’t ever fully join up with NATO) and protections for minorities (which don’t really mean anything – and probably traded with bullshit protections for Russians in Ukraine that look to legitimise Putin’s logic from the start) with some further background trade-offs that favour the US in Syria and Iran… It’s ugly and you could call it ‘appeasement’ and draw comparisons there, but there’s not much that could be done about it. EU/US/IMF have their man in Kiev now – they’ll get to destroy a generation of the rest of the Ukrainians in their own special way.
Why should Ukraine be forced to give up the Crimea based on a simple referendum? Why was there no referendum by Crimea in 1991 when the Ukraine became and independent country or in the 22 years since then? This sudden push for Crimean independence or Crimea joining Russia appears to be new.

Would Russia allow Chechnya to leave Russia based on a simple referendum? I think not given the thousands of Chechens that have been killed over the past 20 years. If Russia will not allow Chechnya or any other area of Russia to leave Russia, why must Ukraine be forced to let the Crimea leave?
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:21 AM   #95
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Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant compared to Russia's illegal unprovoked invasion of Ukraine. The only one behaving like a fascist is Putin.
If it was against Putin or Russia, you'd say that it's 100% real and proved as true. Because it puts those that the media paint as "good guys" in the same trash bin as Putin, you say that it's "alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant".
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Old 03-06-2014, 06:50 AM   #96
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Clearly the folks with white supremacist insignia aren't fascists, it's definitely Putin who's the fascist! (despite being a socially conservative neoliberal, but hey)
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Old 03-06-2014, 08:14 AM   #97
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Originally Posted by Aygo View Post
If it was against Putin or Russia, you'd say that it's 100% real and proved as true. Because it puts those that the media paint as "good guys" in the same trash bin as Putin, you say that it's "alleged, unproven, and essentially irrelevant".
The fact remains, its an unproven allegation. It is a fact that Putin has invaded the Ukraine sighting reasons that are the same as Hitler's move into Czechoslovakia. Why you would cling to an unproven allegation and essentially ignore Putin's invasion of Ukraine is unusual.

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Clearly the folks with white supremacist insignia aren't fascists, it's definitely Putin who's the fascist! (despite being a socially conservative neoliberal, but hey)
Vlad, wearing or not wearing an insignia does not signify what a person is. Look at the persons actions? Has anyone from the Ukraine invaded Russia under the idea of allegedly protecting a certain ethnic group? No. But this is what Putin has done in the Ukraine. An illegal, unprovoked invasion of a another country justified under trumped up allegations of needing to defend ethnic Russians in the Crimea. Hitler made the same claim for his moves in Czechoslovakia in 1938. Oh, and just because Russian troops don't wear insignia identifying them as Russian troops does not change the fact that they are Russian troops.
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Old 03-06-2014, 09:12 AM   #98
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"I Am A Ukrainian"

I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:19 AM   #99
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I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.
On paper, ie Putin's reasoning, it's way closer to Panama in 1989.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:55 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.
It's worthless. From the begininng of the thread, Steve_Bono adopted an attitude of "if you're not with me, you're against me"... Which, in fact is an attitude typical of totalitarian leaders like, for instance, the same Putin he claims being the only devil in the world.
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Old 03-06-2014, 10:58 AM   #101
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Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Guess what, Ukraine has history prior to it being gradually annexed into the Russian Empire. The Crimea was always part of the Ukraine. It was only part of Russian Federation from 1920 to 1954. For the overwhelming portion of Ukraine's history, Crimea has been apart of the Ukraine. In fact, Russia did not have any control of the Crimea until 1783. In 1783, 95% of the Crimea was ethnic Tarters as was much of southern Ukraine. Over the next century and a half, the Tarters were removed from Crimea and replaced with Russians. Ethnic cleansing indeed.

What happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a disaster.

In other news today, Hillary Clinton has compared Putin to Adolf Hitler!
No, it wasn't. Ukraine wasn't even a proper country, a well-defined state or kingdom. On the other hand, Crimea was a kingdom before belonging to Russia and to Ukraine.
Crimea was given (as a mere object) to Ukraine only in the XX century by Russia.
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:32 PM   #102
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No, it wasn't. Ukraine wasn't even a proper country, a well-defined state or kingdom. On the other hand, Crimea was a kingdom before belonging to Russia and to Ukraine.
Crimea was given (as a mere object) to Ukraine only in the XX century by Russia.
Prior to the 1783 Russian take over of southern Ukraine including the Crimea, it was part of the Ottoman Empire. The Crimea was only ever part of the Russian Federation, instead of UKRAINE, during the Soviet Union from 1920 to 1954. Crimea has never been recognized as a completely independent state in the way the entire planet has recognized Ukraine for the past 22 years. The Crimea was ethnically cleansed of its original population by Moscow.

The Crimea is as much apart of the history of Ukraine just as County Kerry or the Aran Islands are apart of Ireland's history. Also, the descendents of the original ethnic population of the Crimea, the Tartars, are overwhelmingly in favor of remaining apart of the Ukraine.
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Old 03-06-2014, 03:39 PM   #103
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On paper, ie Putin's reasoning, it's way closer to Panama in 1989.
So tell me, were there any Russian soldiers killed in the Crimea? Can you describe the danger to Russian soldiers in the Crimea that would justify and invasion like that of Panama in 1989? Did anyone in the Crimea stand at a podium with a sword and slam it down declaring that a state of war exist with Russia, just as Noriega declared in 1989?

Is the Ukraine involved in some action that threatens Russia's security? Have any ethnic Russians been murdered by Ukrainians? When and Where?
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:13 PM   #104
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I don't think anyone is defending Putin. They're just trying to help you understand the situation better by adding nuance and complexity to your flat declarations.

It's not always 1938 and Crimea isn't Poland. Cold Warriors die hard.
There is plenty of defense of Russia's actions and criticism of Ukraine's actions for greater freedom from the strangling influence of Russia in this thread. There is nothing complex or nuanced about dismissing Russian actions over the past 10 days.

What I have said is perfectly in line with what Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton have said about Russia. Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton support the new Ukrainian government as well as its removal of President Yanukovych. They support Ukrainians desire to reduce Russian influence in their country and join the European Union. They both strongly oppose the illegal and unprovoked invasion of the Ukraine in the Crimea.

In response to the invasion, Barack Obama has started to slap Russia with several different types of sanctions. In addition, Barack Obama is now moving US Airforce assets from England to Lithuania due to increased Russian military activity in Kaliningrad which borders both Poland and Lithuania.

Crimea is apart of the Ukraine, and Russia's unprovoked invasion is just as illegal as Germany's moves into Czechoslovakia in 1938. Its illegal to launch unprovoked invasions of other countries whether they occurred in 1938 or 2014.

US sends six fighters for NATO Baltics patrols: Lithuania


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US to bolster military support to Poland, Baltic

Washington (AFP) - The United States plans to expand military cooperation with Poland and Baltic states to show "support" for its allies after Russia's intervention in Ukraine, Pentagon chief Chuck Hagel said Wednesday.

"This morning the Defense Department is pursuing measures to support our allies," including expanded aviation training in Poland and increasing the US role in NATO's air policing mission over Baltic countries, Hagel told lawmakers.

NATO's top commander and head of the US European Command, General Philip Breedlove, also planned to confer with Central and Eastern European defense chiefs, Hagel said.
"This is a time for wise, steady, and firm leadership," Hagel told the Senate Armed Services Committee.
"It is a time for all of us to stand with the Ukrainian people in support of their territorial integrity and sovereignty, and their right to have a government that fulfills the aspirations of its people."

Dempsey, chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff, said he had also spoken this week to military chiefs in the Baltics and in Central and Eastern Europe.
"Understandably, they are concerned. They seek our assurance for their security," he said.
"During our conversations we committed to developing options to provide those assurances and to deter further Russian aggression," the four-star general said.

Leaders of Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary and Slovakia said Tuesday they were "shocked" by Russia's actions in Ukraine, saying it resembled SOVIET CRACKDOWNS in their countries during the Cold War.

NATO held rare emergency meetings this week after Poland requested "article 4" consultations in light of the crises in Ukraine, where pro-Russian forces have taken de facto control over the Crimean peninsula.

Under article 4 of the alliance treaty, any NATO member can request consultations when they believe their territorial integrity, political independence or security are threatened.
US to bolster military support to Poland, Baltic
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Old 03-06-2014, 04:18 PM   #105
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Why are you so defensive about this, Steve?

The point about nuance and complexity is that there is more to this than simple Russian aggression, and even if the Russians are being overly aggressive (a point I don't think anyone is denying), there are things about the Ukrainian coalition that warrant concern, too.
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