"I Am A Ukrainian" - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 02-28-2014, 06:48 PM   #76
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 02:03 PM
CNN is showing footage of Russian helicopters flying over the Crimea. Oh boy...

It's been over 20 years since the end of the Cold War. Looks like its starting up again, or it never really went away.
__________________

__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 07:50 PM   #77
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?
To a degree it would be, but from what I understand eastern Ukraine is relatively heavily populated compared to the west and is the more 'industrial' part of the country, if it were to become independent of Ukraine or join Russia (still unlikely at this stage) the remainder of Ukraine would probably struggle on its own.

Crimea deserting Ukraine may not be such a bad thing since about 70% of those living there are not/don't see themselves as Ukrainian. Either way, the result afterwards can be hard to predict if it happens as having a Russian territory of 2 million to your south would be pretty daunting if you were a big shot in the Ukrainian government.
__________________

__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-28-2014, 08:23 PM   #78
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Looks like Russia is pulling the same crap they did in Georgia in 2008 when they invaded the country and then claimed that South Osetia and Abakazia were independent states instead of being part of Georgia. Russia is the only country that recognizes these places as independent states.

Simply because 30%, 50% or 70% of a population of a region are ethnically the same as a neighboring country, that NEVER ever justifies an invasion. Crimea is apart of the Ukraine and is recognized as being such by the United Nations and treaty agreements signed in 1994 by Russia, Ukraine, and the United States.
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 09:08 AM   #79
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
It is surprising that there has yet to be any fighting yet with Russian troops being deployed in different areas of the Crimea. One reason may be that most Ukrainian forces are based in areas that are west of the Dnieper River and a good distance from the Crimea. Ukraine's navy which is very small is based in the Crimea, but there are no major ground forces of the Ukrainian army that are stationed in the Crimea which may explain why the situation although alarming has remained relatively calm.
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 04:05 PM   #80
Refugee
 
PennyLanePHINS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY
Posts: 1,062
Local Time: 01:03 PM
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.
__________________
PennyLanePHINS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 05:21 PM   #81
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Pearl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: NYC
Posts: 5,653
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS View Post
They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.
Its all about money, sadly.
__________________
Pearl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-01-2014, 05:34 PM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
Vlad n U 2's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 28,013
Local Time: 04:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS View Post
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.
There's going to be a referendum at the end of this month re: Crimea from what I believe.

If you're going to strip a country of a sporting event due to abuses of human rights you may as well cancel the Olympics/World Cup for good.
__________________
Vlad n U 2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 07:33 AM   #83
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

Quote:

Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves

KIEV/BALACLAVA, Ukraine (Reuters) - Ukraine mobilized on Sunday for war and called up its reserves, after Russian President Vladimir Putin threatened to invade in the biggest confrontation between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.
Ukraine's security council ordered the general staff to immediately put all armed forces on highest alert, the council's secretary Andriy Parubiy announced. The Defense Ministry was ordered to conduct the call-up, potentially of all men up to 40 in a country that still has universal male conscription.

Russian forces who have already bloodlessly seized Crimea - an isolated Black Sea peninsula where most of the population are ethnic Russian and Moscow has a naval base - tried to disarm the small Ukrainian contingents there on Sunday. Some Ukrainian commanders refused to give up weapons and bases were surrounded.

Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseny Yatseniuk, leading a pro-European government that took power after Moscow ally Viktor Yanukovich fled a week ago, said Russian armed action "would be the beginning of war and the end of any relations between Ukraine and Russia".

Russian news agencies reported that Moscow's troops had disarmed Ukrainians at several small bases.
Igor Mamchev, a Ukrainian navy colonel at a small base near the regional capital Simferopol, told Ukraine's Channel 5 television he had refused to surrender.
"A truck with troops of the Russian Federation, armed with rifles, helmets and bullet-proof vests arrived at our checkpoint and suggested we give up our weapons and accept the protection of the armed forces of the Russian Federation," he said.
"I replied that, as I am a member of the armed forces of Ukraine, under orders of the Ukrainian navy, there could be no discussion of disarmament. In case of any attempt to enter the military base, we will use all means, up to lethal force.
"We are military people, who have given our oath to the people of Ukraine and will carry out our duty until the end."
Ukrainian marines were barricaded into a base in Feodosia, a Crimean port. Russia appealed for them to back the "legitimate" - pro-Russian - regional leadership.
Their commander, Dmytro Delyatytskiy, told Ukraine's Channel 5 by telephone Russian troops had demanded they give up their weapons by 10 a.m. and they refused.

"We have orders," he said. "We are preparing our defenses."


. Urkraine mobilizes for war, calls up reserves
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 11:07 PM   #84
Blue Crack Supplier
 
dazzledbylight's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: in the sound dancing - w Bono & Edge :D
Posts: 33,002
Local Time: 01:03 PM


no to Russia's bullying AND no to EU's "economic reform" = austerity measures

fuck
__________________
dazzledbylight is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 12:22 PM   #85
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Launching and unprovoked invasion of another country is far more than just bullying. I have yet to see any justification for what Russia has done over the past few days. There is no evidence that even a single ethnic Russian in Crimea has been attacked based on their ethnicity or language. At the same time, Russian military forces have fired shots at Ukrainian troops and ordered them to give up their weapons. On what grounds do Russian soldiers have the right to tell Ukrainian troops on their own territory, in their own military bases, to surrender? It is incredible the amount of restraint that Ukraine has shown. Its clear that Putin was hoping that there would be clashes in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine in order to give him a stronger pre-text to send in even more troops and the first troops into eastern Ukraine, but that has not happened. Russian troops must withdraw immediately! Ukraine is an independent state and has its own military and police force that can handle any alleged human rights violations should they occur.

Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 09:59 PM   #86
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Aygo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Barcelona, Spain [Lisbon, Portugal]
Posts: 3,514
Local Time: 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PennyLanePHINS View Post
Because Russia isn't large enough they need Crimea? I know...there are Russians living there and it is very strategically placed. But still. They come off the Olympics, a peaceful event, and then intervene in Ukraine. They should be stripped of the World Cup along with Qatar...but FIFA has no guts.
The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.
__________________
Aygo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:43 AM   #87
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aygo View Post
The funny fact is that Crimea was a reign that became part of Russia before the former "gave" it to Ukraine.
The whole thing with Crimea (and the West Ukraine) is way more than the native russians or russian speakers over there. First of all, it has a lot to do with the bunch of money that Russia invested in those territories. But, in my point of view, this whole Crimea thing is just another part of the war between Russia, the EU and the US. Those who'll "have" Crimea, will also have the control of the Black Sea. And guess what the Black Sea has a lot to "give"...

Answering to the question if Ukraine could "technically" (although "technically" do never exist in these things) divided in two (or more) different regions... I'd remember Yugoslavia in the early 1990's.
Guess what, Ukraine has history prior to it being gradually annexed into the Russian Empire. The Crimea was always part of the Ukraine. It was only part of Russian Federation from 1920 to 1954. For the overwhelming portion of Ukraine's history, Crimea has been apart of the Ukraine. In fact, Russia did not have any control of the Crimea until 1783. In 1783, 95% of the Crimea was ethnic Tarters as was much of southern Ukraine. Over the next century and a half, the Tarters were removed from Crimea and replaced with Russians. Ethnic cleansing indeed.

What happened in Yugoslavia in the 1990s was a disaster.

In other news today, Hillary Clinton has compared Putin to Adolf Hitler!
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:54 AM   #88
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Its time to start drilling for more oil and drop the global price of oil. Russia is very dependent on the price of oil and natural gas, and moves to reduce their price will hurt the Russian economy and put increased domestic political pressure on Putin.
So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?
__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 12:12 PM   #89
The Fly
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 285
Local Time: 02:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
So what do you think are Russia/Putin’s political and strategic reasons for trying this, and how do you think raising gas prices and attempting to trash their economy would change those?
Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.

I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.

This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.

Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.
__________________
Steve_Bono is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 01:46 PM   #90
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: London/Sydney
Posts: 6,608
Local Time: 07:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Putin is trying to expand Russia's "sphere of influence" and prevent more former Soviet Republics from joining the European Union and NATO. Putin considers the greatest disaster of the 20th century to be the collapse of the Soviet Union. Putin wants to gradually rebuild and attain for Russia the power that the Soviet Union/Russian Empire once had.
I certainly wouldn't go so far as to say he wants to replicate/return to the Soviet Union, but agreed that he/they think they gave way too much up (power, prestige, territory) and will try and claw some back wherever possible. There are semi-legit strategic motives (they genuinely see the EU and NATO as a threat – you could disagree or think they’re paranoid, but pushing back on both whenever they can they feel is a legit, important thing to do for their own security) and purely political motives, i.e. regaining territory and influence, especially while giving the EU/NATO/US a bloody nose, obviously strengthens Putin. There are also – as there always are – a number of other things going on that surely are all now (back) on the negotiating table. Syria, Iran etc. Who is in more of a position of strength at the negotiating table right now? I’d say it’s definitely Russia.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
I never said raising gas prices was a goal. Raising the gas price would be good for Russia. The West needs to unite and find a way to lower gas prices because natural gas and oil revenues reportedly makes up half of Russia's annually government budget. Russia suffered in the late 1990s when both Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil came back on line and the price of a gallon gas in the United States and most of the world dropped to its lowest level in 1999 in history after adjusting for inflation. Russia's weakest year since the collapse of the Soviet Union was 1999.
My mistake, I did mean to write ‘lower’ gas prices, not raise. Regardless, I would think that deflating Russia’s economy and thus Putin would only lead him to push further in ways like this to maintain his standing and power. I think he’d play it fairly easily (for the home audience) and send Russia more insular, more unpredictable, more aggressive. Economically weakening Russia is a response, but not a solution.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
This is a way to raise the cost for Russia's intervention in Ukraine. Provided enough countries would unite in isolating Russia, it could raise the cost for Russia to a degree that they would pull back from their efforts in the Ukraine. I doubt Putin is willing to risk sinking the Russian economy, just to obtain the Crimea or Eastern Ukraine. The problem with this strategy is the West is divided on what to do and many countries in Europe currently get much of their natural gas from Russia. Japan is also dependent on Russian resources especially now that they have shut down their nuclear power plants. It may not work, in which case the only other option which the West should be engaged in anyways is to financially strengthen Ukraine and help the new government so more people in Ukraine will support a move towards the West.
It seems all the world leaders are clamouring to condemn and suggest hard economic punishment… as long as it doesn’t include X… because we make good money from that… but everyone else should sanction everything else!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve_Bono View Post
Elections are scheduled for May and I sence Ukrainians will collectively send the Russians a message about their invasion of Crimea on election day. I think many Ukrainians who may have been on the fence about stronger ties with the West will now be pushing for it. Far better to be apart of an economic Union in Europe with other free democracy's than to be reincorporated into the Russian Empire and have its freedom and independence extinguished for good.
So what if a Crimean referendum is held – and declared by all independent (EU, US, UN) inspectors to be free and fair – and it comes in at, say, 80% in favour of joining Russia? Hard to ignore. Tie it with further guarantees on remaining Ukrainian territorial sovereignty (traded off against how and when or to what level Ukraine could or couldn’t ever fully join up with NATO) and protections for minorities (which don’t really mean anything – and probably traded with bullshit protections for Russians in Ukraine that look to legitimise Putin’s logic from the start) with some further background trade-offs that favour the US in Syria and Iran… It’s ugly and you could call it ‘appeasement’ and draw comparisons there, but there’s not much that could be done about it. EU/US/IMF have their man in Kiev now – they’ll get to destroy a generation of the rest of the Ukrainians in their own special way.

Having said all that, this is just Crimea – any excursion into Eastern Ukraine proper and I’d say all bets are off.
__________________

__________________
Earnie Shavers is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:03 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com