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Old 02-24-2014, 07:01 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
He does remind me of some Eastern Europeans I've come across online, the sort who seem to have a deep seated hatred of anything Russian and an almost unconditional support of anything Western/EU/NATO. But then after a bit of thought this attitude can also apply to American conservatives and a portion of liberals.

It's American neo-conservativism through and through. The type of thinking that led to the Iraq War and dominated America foreign policy in the early '00's.

But this is about Ukraine.

I am learning a lot from you folks, and had forgotten how fascinating Russian history is.
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Old 02-24-2014, 07:19 PM   #62
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For anyone curious about the Ukrainian east/west divide, it goes back a long way ...



And now:



And in comes the IMF:

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Old 02-25-2014, 08:54 AM   #63
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For anyone curious about the Ukrainian east/west divide, it goes back a long way ...

And in comes the IMF:

Steinmeier not only is the Foreign Affairs Minister, he also is the leader of the SPD (social-democratic party of Germany). Which strengthens the thesis that Germany (under the EU cover) is also under all this. First, we know that Klitschko and the UDAR are being financed by Merkel's CDU/CSU (and the Adenauer Foundation) and that he and his twin brother are friends and have been followed by Guido Westerwelle (former Foreign Affairs Minister - until November 2013, ex-leader of the FDP, the right-wing liberal party). Now, as I predicted and suspected, we see the SPD (the other "big party of Government" with CDU/CSU) pushing Ukraine into a bailout, followed by the agenda and conditions I previously mentioned.
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Old 02-25-2014, 09:20 AM   #64
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STING Steve, you're completely ignoring most of the actual issue. If you successfully haul all of the country over to the 'EU Side', you still have a huge problem that's not going to magically go away.
Let him wear the pink glasses. When the reality comes down, it'll be even worse.
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:38 PM   #65
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Steinmeier not only is the Foreign Affairs Minister, he also is the leader of the SPD (social-democratic party of Germany). Which strengthens the thesis that Germany (under the EU cover) is also under all this. First, we know that Klitschko and the UDAR are being financed by Merkel's CDU/CSU (and the Adenauer Foundation) and that he and his twin brother are friends and have been followed by Guido Westerwelle (former Foreign Affairs Minister - until November 2013, ex-leader of the FDP, the right-wing liberal party). Now, as I predicted and suspected, we see the SPD (the other "big party of Government" with CDU/CSU) pushing Ukraine into a bailout, followed by the agenda and conditions I previously mentioned.
I'm getting the impression that the US are not liking Merkel's involvement with Klitschko/UDAR, at least it's this article from several days ago that suggests it may be the case. The US diplomat and ambassador to Ukraine are seriously considering the idea of allowing Tyagnybok anywhere near the government, which I think is not particularly surprising and doesn't suggest that they care about what a fascist with significant influence could bring.

I don't remember where I read it but I do remember reading that Ukraine needs $35 billion to keep itself afloat over the next 2 years or something along the lines of that.
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Old 02-25-2014, 08:14 PM   #66
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It didn't take long.

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Molotov cocktails were thrown at the newly-built synagogue and Jewish community center of Zaporozhye, in southeastern Ukraine, on Monday night, according to a blog of the Chabad movement.
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:33 AM   #67
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oh no!

From some the crap i read on the comment
i guess not so suprised but still !

or do wee say it

shocked but not (so) suprised.
damn
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Old 02-26-2014, 01:35 AM   #68
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imf- not always your friendly banker

then again i'm not a neo-liberal

i'm guessing that maaaaybe the imf has done some good at some point(s?)
but other times (maybe more often then not) esp with the austerity shite
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Old 02-26-2014, 10:16 AM   #69
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Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

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Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill

MOSCOW (Reuters) - President Vladimir Putin ordered an urgent drill to test the combat readiness of the armed forces across western Russia on Wednesday, flexing Moscow's military muscle amid tension with the West over Ukraine.

"In accordance with an order from the president of the Russian Federation, forces of the Western Military District were put on alert at 1400 (0500 ET) today," the Interfax news agency quoted Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu as saying.

The western district encompasses most of western Russia and borders Ukraine, which lies between NATO nations and Russia.

The United States and European nations have warned Russia against military intervention in Ukraine, a former Soviet republic that Putin has called a "brother nation" and wants to be part of a Eurasian Union he is building in the region.

Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev said on Monday that Russia's interests and its citizens in Ukraine were under threat, language reminiscent of statements justifying Russia's invasion of Georgia in 2008, when he was president.

the drill would be conducted in two stages, ending on March 3, and also involved the command centers of Russia's Air and Space Defence forces, paratroops and long-range aviation as well as some troops in central Russia.

In the two-day first stage, military units would be brought to "the highest degree of combat readiness" and would be deployed to testing areas on land and sea.

The second stage would include tactical exercises and involve warships from the Northern and Baltic Fleets, he said, and some warplanes would move to combat airfields.

No mention was made of the Black Sea Fleet, which is based in Sevastopol in Crimea, where tension over Ukraine's turmoil is high because of its presence and a large Russian-speaking population.
Putin puts troops in western Russia on alert in drill
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Old 02-26-2014, 02:03 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by Vlad n U 2 View Post
I'm getting the impression that the US are not liking Merkel's involvement with Klitschko/UDAR, at least it's this article from several days ago that suggests it may be the case. The US diplomat and ambassador to Ukraine are seriously considering the idea of allowing Tyagnybok anywhere near the government, which I think is not particularly surprising and doesn't suggest that they care about what a fascist with significant influence could bring.

I don't remember where I read it but I do remember reading that Ukraine needs $35 billion to keep itself afloat over the next 2 years or something along the lines of that.
In the end, more than the fair fight of ukrainians for democracy, this is a war of blocks and of world influence between Russia, the UE and the US.

You're right, Vlad. Ukraine is in pre-bankrupcy. In fact, it already was. This year, 2014, Ukraine has to pay €13 billion (in "european" we'd say "€13 000 milions"). Russia was supposed to "lend" €15 billion this year, to "ensure" the payments. Standard & Poors have already explained that, without this russian capital injection, the economic collapse is guaranteed. Specially because of all this situation, obviously, now Russia is hesitating in giving that money.
On the other hand, the US - and the EU - (disguised in the IFM clothes) has already stated, as I said, that they have a bailout ready if Ukraine requires it... But, Olli Rehn and Christine Lagarde have already explained that Ukraine will only see these fresh dollars if the country commits to introduce "structural economic reforms" [Olli Rehn/Merkel to the PIIGS, anyone?]. Plus, the US Departement has already asked for Ukraine to get a "technocratic government of national unity" (like Monti in Italy, like Papademos in Greece, like this 3-party-"consensus" in Portugal... like the "national unities" in South America in the 1960/70's...). With the strategic importance of Ukraine and with what's been done to other countries in similar situations in the past, the only possible translation is: "give us your actives and we'll keep you connected to the credit machine.
As a portuguese journalist described, Ukraine is just leaving jail to enter into an equualy tough and tight probation.

Chris Floyd made the following analogy (I'm having trouble finding the original in english, so I'm translating back to english from the portuguese translation):
Try to imagine that thousands of supporters of the Tea Party, for example, had declared the elected government of Barack Obama too corrupt and illegitimate to continue, putting up an armed camp in the middle of Washington, occupying for months the Treasury Building and the Justice Department, while meeting with Chinese and Russian leaders, who then began to require that a "transitional government" to establish itself in the White House. What would be the reaction of the government? There is no doubt that it would make Yanukovich's actions look like a catechism picnic.

I'm afraid that, on the other hand, we're not just watching a US/EU/Russia war, not only the fight of ukrainians for the right to a cleaner and more democratic regime, but also to the beginning of a civil war.
It never was a secret that Ukraine was born of fragments of an older Ukraine and pieces of extinct countries and communities. The neonazi and extreme-right movements in Ukraine (and, in a certain way, in other Eastern Europe countries) don't exist or didn't come up from nothing, there's an historical-sociological reason behind it. And Ukraine might be on the verge of a war between an East side of a population with mostly russian speakers, and a Western side where the ukrainian is the predominant language.
In fact, the Svoboda Party (means "Freedom", to hide its opposite real agenda), the extreme-right party had very good electoral results over the past years. The Svoboda history descends from Nazi organizations that collaborated with Hitler's troops, including being integrated in the SS, murdering jews, communists and polish. Then, it changed its name to National Socialist Party, while using a stylization of the swastika. Today it exists as the Svoboda.
The Svoboda, in the last general elections made a parliamentary coalition of opposition with the UDAR (the same Klitschko's party who's been financed by Germany's and Merkel's CDU/CSU) and the Tymoshenko's Party, in order to overthrow the government that existed.
Plus, in the last elections, the Svoboda had brilliant results in the Western side of the country, while, the more you go to the East, it had disastrous results. For instance, in the provinces closer to Russian and in the Crimea Autonomous Region (another headache for Ukraine in terms of territorial cohesion) it had 1-2%. In the center, it had 5-15%. But in the regions closer to Poland, Hungary and the more you go to the west, there are regions where the Svoboda obtained 30, 32 or 38%.
And in these regions where the Svoboda won the elections, the first thing it did was, not only to forbid the russian as second official language, but they also stormed the headquarters of the parties voting in the majority of the Ukrainian population that speaks Russian and banned its activity.

We may be towards a case where civilization is a thin veneer, just like in Yugoslavia. The difference is that, this time, people live in a territory filled with nuclear weapons.
Meanwhile, the US, the EU and Russia are playing to the cold wars with each other.
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Old 02-27-2014, 03:23 AM   #71
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Armed men seize Crimea parliament and hoist Russian flag | World news | theguardian.com

So this is all going really well then.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:18 AM   #72
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I'm at the point where I wouldn't be surprised if parts of Ukraine, notably Crimea, decided to unlock itself from it, and I say that even though the event of that happening is still pretty low. I'm a bit confused as to why the Crimean Tatar community would support the new Ukrainian government since given the noted extremism present around and about, they wouldn't take too kindly to the Tatars.

Again, I'll reiterate that Ukraine's troubles aren't even close to ending, but in many ways given their geographical location they really don't have much of a say with either power at their doorstep.
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:33 AM   #73
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Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:06 PM   #74
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Its now being alleged that Russian troops have invaded the Ukraine in the area of the Crimea. The rumor is that several thousand Russian airborne or "special forces" have landed in the Crimea. Several government buildings have been seized by unknown forces and two airports have been taken by unknown military forces as well.

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7 minutes agoObama on Ukraine: The U.S. is 'deeply concerned'


CNN) - The United States is "deeply concerned" by reports of Russian military movements inside Ukraine, President Barack Obama said Friday, saying any violation of Ukraine's sovereignty would be "deeply destabilizing."
Obama said that the situation in Ukraine was "very fluid" and that the United States would continue to coordinate closely with European allies and communicate directly with the Russian government.

"The United States will stand with the international community in affirming that there will be costs for any military intervention in Ukraine," he said.
Obama on Ukraine: The U.S. is ‘deeply concerned’ – CNN Political Ticker - CNN.com Blogs
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:11 PM   #75
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Pardon my lack of knowledge on the subject, but would partitioning Ukraine be a viable option that would solve anything?
Unlikely. Carving up recognized independent UN states is usually a bad idea. Ethnic Ukrainians make up 25% of the Crimea's population and ethnic Tarters make up another 10%.
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