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Old 02-21-2014, 08:48 AM   #16
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The Western media has been in a strongly anti-Putin mood lately, and that has made following this issue difficult from my perspective.

Not that I like Putin. I'm generally very pro-capitalism, pro-free trade, and pro-Western democracy, and pro-EU, so my instinctual bias is to definitely support a Ukraine signing the trade pact with the EU and avoiding Putin's brand of corruptocracy. But the idea of a Golden Dawn-esque party having any significant power in a European state scares me at least as much as Putin. The Western media doesn't really mention the fascist influences in Ukraine; I've only heard about it through people decidedly to the left of me (like you, Vlad, and a Marxist Facebook friend of mine). So, even while my instinct is to wholeheartedly agree with the stance taken by the Western media, to deplore Putin and Yanukovych and support whatever actions the EU takes towards that goal, the thought of enabling (or even directly supporting, as the EU has purportedly done) a far-right party does worry me.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:20 AM   #17
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What's happening in the Ukraine is one of the most interesting and revealing events of the tension between powers, nations, political blocs.
Portugal has one of the biggest ukrainian immigrant communities in Europe (it's the biggest after the portuguese-speaker communities here), so I hear a lot from ukrainians, very different views that add reality to the knowledge I already had. What's happening in Ukraine could be simplified (of course it's not that simple and linear) as a war between the influence of what's left from the URSS and Germany, using the European Union badge and the strong hand of the USA. Basically this is the explosion of the leftovers of the cold war that was never ended in fact.
If I was ukrainian, I'd simply kick both Russia's and EU's asses.
The main question that ukrainians have to put them selves now is if it's worthy to leave the strong influence of an oppressive and anachronistic totalitarism (Russia) to engage and enter into a new sort of imperialism in crescent anti-democratic bloc that's getting chaotic and that's going to collapse in the next 2-3 decades.
It's a big dilemma, having to lick Putin's fascist ass or to submit to the EU's obscure agenda. But the second is gonna win.

A few days ago I was talking to a gym-mate that's ukrainian that I bet whatever he wanted that Ukraine will enter the EU. I strongly believe that from the moment that Ukraine enters the EU, a "bailout" will be offered/imposed, and "sold" as a "passport for the admirable world of the western pseudo-democracy"; and simultaneously; there'll be a media brainwash about the harms and curses of Socialism, the same way it was made in most Eastern European countries that joined the EU.
At the same time, the big Western Europe corporations that used to produce in their home countries and that relocated the production in Hungary/Czech Republic/Slovakia/Romania/etc., will do it in Ukrania. Ukrania is a more-than-attractive market for the french/german/italian/etc. brands. Why should these produce in Spain, Belgium or even Slovenia and Poland, if now they can do it in Ukrania, which has +40 million people of cheap manpower? EU is just like Russia/URSS. Doesn't fucking matter if your country is poor, if it's a dictatorship living in proto-fascism, if 20% of your population is emigrating, as long as it fulfills the agenda and the interests of the biggest powers and countri€$, who decide it all. So, Ukraine will join the EU... Even fast than Turkey, than Bosnia or than Serbia. Serbia is a good example: doesn't matter if some EU countries recognize Kosovo as an independent state (as Portugal do) and other don't (as Spain do not), what matters is that Serbia is a candidate to join EU because it's a good market to explore.
This is what Angela Merkel means to say when she says that her political belief is the free market economy ideology.

And why did I bring Merkel? Because Germany is the biggest accomplice of Ukraine's situation. Forgetting that crazy Tymoshenko which, the leader of the opposition, who's in "conversations" and "negociations" with the President/Government, is Vitaly Klitschko, a former boxe player/champion.
But who's Vitali Klitschko and where's his UDAR party is placed? Well... The UDAR is a party with the "observer party" status in the EPP (European Popular Party). And who's financing Vitali Klitschko? You got it. The Konrad Adenauer Foundation (former Germany-chancelor, between 1949-63, and... former CDU leader)... And CDU/CSU, Angela Merkel's party!
Plus, Vitali Klitschko has also been followed and accompanied in events by Guido Westerwelle, Germany's foreign affairs Minister and one of the "leaders" of the FDP (Free Democratic Party), the other right-wing party in Germany.

Besides, what I told to my friend that I suspected that would happen, came much earlier than what I thought (which makes the EU predictable). Yesterday, the USA and the EU (90% of the "composers" of the "troika" - that made the "bailouts" of last 10 years) announced that they already have ready a "credit line" (nice name for a bailout) for Ukraine, but Ukraine will have to proceed as told.

Also, it's been reported (with images and videos) that some of the "rebellions" and violence in Kiev has been propelled by ultra-right and neo-nazi groups (recognizable in the images by the logos and signs in their jackets, flags, caps, etc.) that have been supported by the consent of the opposition leader... Which doesn't surprise me, because it matches the crescent anti-semitic/anti-foreign/neo-nazi groups and parties in Eastern Europe countries - and that's going to be pretty clear in the results of the up coming European Elections in May.
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Old 02-21-2014, 04:56 PM   #18
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It's a shame that no matter which side wins, there really isn't anything positive in sight. I don't see much light at the end of this tunnel.
This.

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I can say with absolutely certainty that nothing remotely close to what is going on in Ukraine will happen here.
We're already in "scumbag of the Western world" territory with our asylum seeker concentration camps on Manus Island and Nauru.

The failure of most regular white Australians to even give a shit about what's being done by their own government just condemns this country even further.
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Old 02-21-2014, 07:07 PM   #19
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The Western media doesn't really mention the fascist influences in Ukraine; I've only heard about it through people decidedly to the left of me (like you, Vlad, and a Marxist Facebook friend of mine).
They do like to go along with the 'peaceful demonstrators rise up again authoritarian regime' sort of thing, but it's always more complicated than that. Note that the Svoboda party is lead by a guy who believes in the 'Moscow-Jewish mafia' and I think was also banned from entering the US due to his rampant anti-Semitism. These sorts of people rally around fascists like Stepan Bandera (who slaughtered pretty much everyone who hasn't Ukrainian during WW2) and describe them as national heroes.

Here's a bonus photo of the Svoboda leader.

 




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We're already in "scumbag of the Western world" territory with our asylum seeker concentration camps on Manus Island and Nauru.

The failure of most regular white Australians to even give a shit about what's being done by their own government just condemns this country even further.
The problem I have with Cobbler's attitude here is that it's a bit complacent, everyone thinks things like 'oh they're never going to happen here don't worry' until they actually end up happening.
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Old 02-21-2014, 11:47 PM   #20
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The problem I have with Cobbler's attitude here is that it's a bit complacent, everyone thinks things like 'oh they're never going to happen here don't worry' until they actually end up happening.
Especially given the alarming downwards spiral we are already experiencing. If the last six months are a harbinger of the next 2.5 - and probably 5.5 - years, it's a bit worrying to contemplate what this country might be like. I'm not saying Australia's going to go all Ukraine in 2016 or anything, but this is no time for complacency.
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"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 02-22-2014, 12:55 AM   #21
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We have a shit govt, no doubt, but if you really think violent, week, fortnight, month, year-long violent riots with guns and explosions could happen here you're incredibly deluded.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:26 AM   #22
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90% chance it won't get that far, but again, you never know.
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Old 02-22-2014, 01:36 AM   #23
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100%. If it ever happens I'll empty my life savings to the two of you.
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Old 02-22-2014, 02:58 AM   #24
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i love the Internetz i can google up stuff you are talking about....
i have some knowledge of what you ae discussing but for instence

i had no idea that currently the "Golden Dawn" is a Greek neo-nazi/fascist/ultra-rightng party! gak! I'm 2nd gen half greek-american. the other half is 2nd gen ukraine-american.

So this thread started i didn't know till i saw it here that there arte neo-nazis involved in this (i went and looked up more stuff on line) and the Svoda party gak to both!

I am one of your more continuing to educate mtself Americans (USA'r)... i have trouble with Putin, AND the uber Corporatists in the usa and all that extreme transnational race-to-the-bottom push on workers.

now i grew up during the cold war - near middle-ish onwards as far as becoming morecogent of the wider world around me. And most people back then couldn't tell a communist from any kind of socialist unless you were embroiled in the factions there in And the nyc area was full of that! So i find myself decdes later being (after listening, reading etc ) I do reject comunism ...not so different from back then but much more knowkedge/experience .
I didn't know there was a range in capitalism... i absolutely reject the laize-faire model. I prefer what i've heard refered to as capitalism-with-a-human-face. Much more regulated <not like it has become> But also have a much higher regard for mixed economies, the nordic-style Democratic Solcialist coutries <still a bit unconfortable w saying that b/c of whence i grew up in but it's true>

Now Pres Franklin D Roosevelt did propse what he called a "second bill of rights" an "economic bill of rights" oing beyond what he ghad already started to put in place....but his death precluded that from going foward.

and you probably hear from time to time how conservartives/right-wing republicans in the usa have been trying to destroy what FDR, later Lyndon Johnson and more expanded on since the get go! what fight we have here!

One thing you don't hear too much about in Obama Care Health Careis that the states are allowed to experiement some with health caare delivery. in Vermont they are allowed to set up their own version of <gasp> single-payer. If it works out it could be the back door for which it'll sprea across the whole usa.that's how it started in Canada with um...one provence.

i'l be looking foward to reading more of your posts ase things continue i hope despite typos i miss < it's very late here > i hope i've been clear.
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Old 02-22-2014, 03:15 AM   #25
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Golden Dawn's surge is still a pretty recent thing, all in the past few years, and I'm not sure its rise has been getting as much attention outside of Europe as it should (likewise Svoboda, Hungary's Jobbik etc).
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Old 02-22-2014, 04:49 AM   #26
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We have a shit govt, no doubt, but if you really think violent, week, fortnight, month, year-long violent riots with guns and explosions could happen here you're incredibly deluded.
I haven't suggested such a thing, but developments such as the asylum seeker concentration camps, smug government secrecy at press conferences, and Queensland's bikie laws are certainly enough to make you worried about this country's direction. This is no time to rest on our laurels and think we've created a fair, harmonious, peaceful, and equitable society devoid of serious grievances or authoritarianism.

But this is more a discussion for an Aussie politics thread. Let's get back to Ukraine.
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"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 02-22-2014, 04:50 AM   #27
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Yes, sorry.
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Old 02-22-2014, 05:00 AM   #28
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Though perhaps the reason this thread has veered in multiple non-Ukraine directions in the space of less than thirty posts is because I think most of us look at the current situation and throw up our hands in either ignorance, despair, confusion, or a combination of all three. I sure lack any kind of articulate response.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 02-22-2014, 08:25 AM   #29
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Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over

Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Protesters took control of Ukraine's capital on Saturday, seizing the president's office as parliament sought to oust him and form a new government. An aide to President Viktor Yanukovych said he had left Kiev for his support base in the country's Russian-speaking east, but that he has no intention of abandoning power.
In a special parliament session, lawmakers warned that the country risks being split in two. The country's western regions want to be closer to the EU and have rejected Yanukovych's authority in many cities, while eastern Ukraine — which accounts for the bulk of the nation's economic output — favors closer ties with Russia.

Ukraine president exits Kiev; protesters take over



A report outlining the crises and talking to various Ukrainians from two months ago:

Ukraine Rising (Part 1)

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Old 02-22-2014, 10:22 AM   #30
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Though perhaps the reason this thread has veered in multiple non-Ukraine directions in the space of less than thirty posts is because I think most of us look at the current situation and throw up our hands in either ignorance, despair, confusion, or a combination of all three. I sure lack any kind of articulate response.

yes. exactly. i haven't a clue what to say that could possibly be productive.
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