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Old 03-09-2014, 09:05 PM   #136
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I'm surprised you even bothered with SB for so long, Aygo, he's not going to change his stance regardless of how much you give him that suggests otherwise.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:15 AM   #137
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Blatantly false. One can decry the Russians' aggression while at the same time acknowledging that there are troubling reports of fascists on the Ukrainian side. Acknowledging that there are fascist elements on the Ukrainian side does not necessarily make one pro-Russian.
Can you name anyone in the Ukraine that has been murdered or physically assaulted by "fascists Ukrainians" over the past month? Compare that to how many Ukrainians you can name that have died in independence square in Kiev and the obvious fact that Russia has sent 30,000 troops into the Ukraine's Crimea and taken it away from the country. I guess we should be acknowledging Hitler's reasons for invading Czechosolovakia in order to defend ethnic Germans living there, right?
Its the same thing. A smoke screen of trumped up charges to justify an illegal invasion in 1938 by Hitler and now in 2014 by Putin.
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Old 03-10-2014, 03:25 AM   #138
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I'm not sure how much more convincing anyone needs that actual fascists are a prominent fixture in Ukraine's current political sphere, there is ample proof and anybody who's trying to deny it as 'oh that's just what the Russians are saying!' is deluding themselves. The future is unclear but the threat is real.

I've known of people who have fled the country (eastern part) to family in Russia simply because of that threat and that a lot of things have 'stopped' ie. schools + stores, and that for them at least they don't feel safe about stepping outside.

Basically, Russia's intervention in Crimea is only half the story about what's going on in Ukraine right now but you're unlikely to hear about it outside of blogs/news sources from people in that general Eastern European region. Lots of tension, back-and-forth in a fair few major eastern cities.
Well, that's definitely what Putin would like everyone to believe. Again, where are the murdered and physically assaulted Ukrainians at the hands of "fascist"? No one from the OSCE has spotted this as a problem. What the OSCE has discovered is that the Russians will not allow them into the Crimea. Why won't the Russians allow independent observers from other countries into the Crimea?

Its amazing, a country has been invaded by 30,000 troops and is being threatened with having part of its territory annexed by another country and were having people talk about alleged fascist and Nazi's. If such extremist do exist, its a problem for the local police force, just as it is in Chicago, Atlanta, Munich or London.
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:37 AM   #139
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Another article from the chronicler I posted on page 8 or 9, resulting in a research about the parties who compose the provisional government (all of them goodfellas).
Again, since it's in portuguese, and because I find interesting and important to share, I'm making a free/quick translation. The original is here.

I introduce you the defenders of the "European values​​" in Ukraine

The Guardian and CNN, unsuspecting of having any antipathy to the "Ukrainian question" that mobilizes many Portuguese journalists, revealed the contents of wiretaps between the responsible for the Foreign Policy of the European Union, Catherine Ashton, and the Foreign Minister of Estonia, Urmas Paet. The wiretaps had been disclosed by the Russian media, which raises again new questions about the conduct of espionage and intelligence services in Europe. Again, the behavior of the American NSA and the smoothness of the reaction of European states leaves little room for large indignities.

Summing up, here's what happens: the snipers that mortally hit both protesters and police on Independence Square in Kiev, were the same and there are very strong suspicions of not being connected to the deposed regime. Rather, it is more likely that they were "agents provocateurs" linked to the rebels. What seemed to be a conspiracy theory launched by the Russians thus gained a new credibility. After explaining that the bullets could've only been fired by the same people, Paet says to Ashton about the current coalition (provisional) government: "There is now a growing knowledge that, on the back of the snipers, wasn't Yanukovych , but someone of new coalition."

By ignorance, many will be incredulous. After all, everytime Western citizens see a lot of people in a square they imagine that there can only be the people struggling for freedom and democracy. Not understanding that the conflicts in each country - whether in Egypt or Ukraine - can't be resummed to such simple and "spring-ish" dichotomies, which can solved with a like on facebook. Especially in countries with ethnic conflicts, subjected to strong economic interests and with little democratic tradition.

The Ukrainian opposition, now in the provisional government, is not only - or even primarily - composed of Democrats. Most are engaged in so corrupt and so dependent ruling parties of the ukrainian oligarchs as the deposed government was. And these are just the less "bad". The others, who had an absolutely central role in EuroMaidan and the violent takeover of several symbols of power, are bound to much more sinister organizations that we can imagine. The method of electing some members of the provisional government, based on the "democracy of Sparta", may seem naive and just anecdotic. But it is not. It corresponds to an undemocratic political movement that gained momentum in recent years.

So, let's meet them.
First, a paramilitary group, openly xenophobic, the Pravyi Sektor ("Right Sector"), heir of the "Tryzub" ("Trident") and leaded by Dmytro Yarosh. During the revolution, Yarosh was accused of asking for the support of Dokka Umarov, leader of the faction of the Chechen guerrilla that is linked to Al-Qaeda. The complaint is still being investigated (although, it may be of a fraud). But his organization, quite violent, played a central role in the arming of paramilitary forces during the protests. Militias which have, in the meantime, been officially recognized by the interim government. The Pravyi Sektor promised to outlaw the Party of Regions (Yanukovich's party, which was in power) and the Communist Party.

Another group is the Ukrainian National Assembly-Ukrainian People's Self Defense (Una-Unso ), Orthodox fundamentalists, nationalists, anti-Semites and supporters of an authoritarian government for the country. The militants are organized in volunteer brigades, with training in Chechnya fighting alongside the chechen rebels.

But the most important political force among radical nationalists is, by far, the Pan-Ukrainian Union "Freedom", known by Svoboda only ("Freedom"). The Svoboda is openly neo-Nazi and was founded in 1991 with the "suggestive" name of Social-National Party of Ukraine. Those who are not getting there by the name can always see their symbol to be clarified. Simultaneously to the "mandatory" facelift that several right-wing organizations of Eastern Europe did, with the purpose of being able to be supported or at least tolerated by some Western powers, the PSNU-Svoboda was transformed by his leader Oleh Tyahnybok.

Svoboda is considered by the Simon Wiesenthal Center the fifth most anti-Semitic party in the world. It is openly xenophobic, defending the segregation of Jews and Poles. It is also, of course, homophobic. One of his deputies, Igor Miroshnichenko, assumed admirer of Röhm, Strasser and Goebbels, declared that "homosexuality must banned in this country because it is a disease that helps the spread of AIDS." This same deputy described in its Facebook page, the actress Mila Kunis (Ukrainian origin, with Russian father and Jewish mother) as a "zhydovka", an insulting term to refer Jewish women. The Svoboda not only defends the outlawing of abortion, but criminalization of its public defense. He also advocates the outlawing of any communist party, the universal right to go armed/to carry a gun, the return of Ukraine to the nuclear and that "Spartan democracy." To all this, it's added the accession to the European Union and to NATO, which he absolutely consideres consistent with its political position. Which says something about the image of the democratic requirements that the European Union has [addendum: the EU has announced, desperately, that the agreement with Ukraine is set to be signed quickly, on March 21st].

The cut of the leader of the Svoboda with the rest of the opposition, who however made ​​amends on behalf of the "European values ", took place in 2004, when in a televised speech, praised the Ukrainian resistance in World War II by having fought against "Muscovite-Jewish mafia", leaving this poignant patriotic memory: "They put their guns to shoulder, went to the forest and fought the Muscovites, Germans, Jews and other scum who wanted to take from us the State of Ukraine". On the EuroMaidan Svoboda demonstrators exhibited, opening their parades, proudly, a photography of Stepan Bandera, a Ukrainian nationalist leader during World War II, who collaborated with deportation to Nazi extermination camps of hundreds of thousands of Jews, Communists and Gypsies. In an attempt to win votes to the also unwise/not-recommended (but now transformed into a heroin in the West) Yulia Tymoshenko, the also non-recommedable Vicktor Yushchenko came to give the title of Hero of Ukraine to Bandera, removing it after angry protests from international Jewish organizations. The same European Union that now embraces the pupils of Bandera, at that time, condemned Yushenko for this tribute.

Let there be no confusion. Svoboda is not a small clique. They had 10.5% of total votes in the last elections, elected 38 deputies and had more than 30% in three provinces in the extreme west of Ukraine. In the "heroic" city of Lviv, where the revolt against the government had its start, the neo-Nazis had more than 50% of the votes. Cheery, isn't it?

After the protests, these almost unparalleled groups in Western Europe, were they relegated to the margins? On the contrary, Svoboda has one of the vice-prime-ministers, Oleksandr Sych. His war-horse was the outlawing of abortion, even in cases of rape. When this position was contested, he argued that women "should have a kind of life that avoids the risk of rape, including not drink alcohol and not getting along with little to recommend companies." There's also the secretary of the National Security Council and Defense, the Ministers of the Environment and Agriculture, and also the General Prosecutor of Ukraine. This addition to the defense minister, the Admiral Igor Tenjukh, not being militant has supported the Svoboda party in its public initiatives. Already the Pravyi Sektor has its sinister leader, Dmytro Yarosh, as vice-secretary of the National Security Council and Defense. And Una-Unso has the Minister of Youth and Sport and the President of the National Anti-Corruption Commission. In other words, three parties to the right of the PNR(Portugal)/Front National(France)/Lega Nord(Italy) and the Golden Dawn(Greece) run a government that nobody elected, the Defense, the fight against corruption and the General Attorney.


Now that the dust begins to settle down, maybe we better realize that here there are no heroes and villains. Much less in a country that had to choose between starvation and deportations of Stalin and Hitler's Holocaust. Things are more complicated, despite the television images of the revolt of the Crimean Russians that always appear as animalistic and violent, while the Ukrainians appears as a blue and yellow party repressed by state forces. Before the growing power of the Nazis in the Ukrainian state, now the Russian minority has good reason to think that will not have place in this new Ukraine. As for me, I do not know if I like that the Ukraine of Sir Tyahnybok and his Svoboda have its place in the European Union. For the worst, it's enough what we already have got.
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:36 PM   #140
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Its the same thing. A smoke screen of trumped up charges to justify an illegal invasion in 1938 by Hitler and now in 2014 by Putin.
Blatantly false, again. Name one person in this thread who is using news of fascist factions in the Ukraine to justify the Russian invasion.


Oh, what's that? You can't?
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Old 03-10-2014, 02:43 PM   #141
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Putin is the new Saddam.
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:20 PM   #142
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Blatantly false, again. Name one person in this thread who is using news of fascist factions in the Ukraine to justify the Russian invasion.


Oh, what's that? You can't?
I'm talking about the Russian Foreign Policy Establishment and what they are doing to Ukraine and their justifications for doing it. In 1938, Hitler invaded Czechoslovakia under trumped up charges of needing to defend ethnic Germans living there. Hitler then annexed a large part of the country. In 2014, Russia has invaded the Ukraine on trumped up charges of needing to defend ethnic Russians in the Ukraine and is planning to possibly annex Crimea into Russia. If that happens, it will be the first annexation of the part of another country in Europe since Hitler did it. There is an exact parallel between what Hitler did in 1938 and what Putin is doing in 2014 and Hillary Clinton, perhaps the next President of the United States, has stated this as well.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:05 PM   #143
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And once again you're constructing and debating arguments that no one here is making, "Steve".
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:49 PM   #144
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i guess we shoulda gone to war with Russia back in 2008 when Putin invaded Georgia, just like John McCain wanted.
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:13 PM   #145
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There will definitely be a war if Russia tries to do what it has done in Georgia and Ukraine, in places like Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. Those three countries are also former Soviet Republics, and Estonia and Latvia have a higher percentage of ethnic Russians than Ukraine does. One out of every four people in Estonia and Latvia are ethnic Russians. I hope Putin does not decide they need protection too. Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania became members of the NATO alliance in 2004.
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Old 03-10-2014, 08:26 PM   #146
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There will definitely be a war if Russia tries to do what it has done in Georgia and Ukraine, in places like Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania...

I hope Putin does not decide they need protection too.
It's pretty repulsive of you to wish war on three nations and their innocent people. Have you no shame?
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Old 03-10-2014, 09:48 PM   #147
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I'm not sure that this "force show off" that's not yet a trial of arms will end up in a real war. No one in either sides is interested in that concerning this situation, although I believe that the 2008 crisis (that is not over yet, and that we all know that it'll bring another "wave" soon - 15 months, 18 months, 4 years?) will be solved in a similar way that the 1929 crisis was.
If there's one conclusion that we can take from this situation is that the Obama administration - and his Kerry puppet - is not the best expert in foreign policy, specially in cases like these, like Syria, etc. Plus, everything seems to be set for throwing Hillary (someone who's much better prepared for these kind of things) to the scenario of being elected in 2016 elections, and no one in Obama's or Clinton's side want to ruin it.
On the other hand, Europe has always been a disaster in what concerns dealing with political crisis of foreign countries. Not only because of its multiplicity, which leads the EU to speak through multiple voices and opinions, because several countries have different interests in those specific situations (ex: in this case, Germany and the UK clearly have different agendas), but also because it doesn't have real military power (eventually France and the UK, but Europe always needs NATO, which means, the US).
On the other hand, Putin is a true political fox and has been playing very wisely in its own/in Russia's perspective of what may be done and what's not. One example, unlike what Steve (and the general media) says - as I heard explained on tv by former military officer and politician, Putin send his navy to Crimea, but the way he did it, no one can claim that the Budapest agreement was violated. Not only because Russia has military bases there, but also because, not only sending these forces was "signaled", but also because these forces are officially in a stationary position. Putin, in my perspective, has been the most clever because he's been playing "carefully" and wisely with the official rules and behaviours of the international law. An example is the Crimea referendum that'll take place on March 16th. Predictably, a majority in Crimea will say "yes" about getting back to Russia. It's a referendum, and Putin will play the card of the democratic popular decision of self-determination of a territory - this is a mere example.

Plus, no one, whether the US/EU, whether Russia, dare now, throwing Ukraine in a real civil war that ends up in the division of Ukraine in 2 or more parts. Firstly, because Russia, just like in the past, and just like it happened to Finland, won't really mind if Ukraine leads towards Europe, signing an agreement but staying out of NATO; but also because the EU doesn't want to risk losing most Ukraine's and Russia's profits (specially economics). I must remind that the UK is not favorable at all to a conflict with Russia, because it has too much russian investment (as it always had).
Plus, no one wants to risk that Ukraine isolates in radicalisms, distancing both from Russia and the EU and redeveloping itself as the nuclear power that was and, in the end, still is.

But you know what's funny about all this?
European elections in May 25th will most probably result in a growth of (moderately or more heavily) eurosceptic right parties, of former-communist parties, of left-wing parties that want a pre-Maastricht Europe, specially of extreme-right and neo-nazi parties; which means that we'll probably watch a decrease in results (and seats) of the traditional big parties that used to "rule" and that built this Europe, namely, the parties that belong to the Social-Democratic European Party (which is not social-democratic for 20 years or so, now is Third Way or social-liberalist) and the European People's Party.
Meanwhile, Iceland withdrew its candidacy for EU, Erdogan in Turkey seems to be chilling the talk about its candidacy...
...And in the middle of a political chaos in Europe, with Greece in flames, states bailed out and with crescent protest, and Eastern Europe with the Russian demon present but that always misdoubts the West and Europe, with the UK making threats to EU, with the blooming of separatisms, with the possibility (real or small) of the european project not holding not succeding and collapsing (again)...
...Ukraine (or part of Ukraine) wants to jump in. In the middle of this whirl, Durão Barroso and the techno-bureaucrats couldn't be happier with this news.
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Old 03-11-2014, 02:34 AM   #148
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i guess we shoulda gone to war with Russia back in 2008 when Putin invaded Georgia, just like John McCain wanted.
If anyone else recalls, our good mate McCain got a bit close with Tyagnybok last December or thereabouts.

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It's pretty repulsive of you to wish war on three nations and their innocent people. Have you no shame?
How low can Steve Bono go? Looks like he's still digging.

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But you know what's funny about all this?
European elections in May 25th will most probably result in a growth of (moderately or more heavily) eurosceptic right parties, of former-communist parties, of left-wing parties that want a pre-Maastricht Europe, specially of extreme-right and neo-nazi parties; which means that we'll probably watch a decrease in results (and seats) of the traditional big parties that used to "rule" and that built this Europe, namely, the parties that belong to the Social-Democratic European Party (which is not social-democratic for 20 years or so, now is Third Way or social-liberalist) and the European People's Party.
Meanwhile, Iceland withdrew its candidacy for EU, Erdogan in Turkey seems to be chilling the talk about its candidacy...
...And in the middle of a political chaos in Europe, with Greece in flames, states bailed out and with crescent protest, and Eastern Europe with the Russian demon present but that always misdoubts the West and Europe, with the UK making threats to EU, with the blooming of separatisms, with the possibility (real or small) of the european project not holding not succeding and collapsing (again)...
...Ukraine (or part of Ukraine) wants to jump in. In the middle of this whirl, Durão Barroso and the techno-bureaucrats couldn't be happier with this news.
What is the real significance of the EU elections? I know very little about this and how influential these elections really are.
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Old 03-11-2014, 08:32 AM   #149
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What is the real significance of the EU elections? I know very little about this and how influential these elections really are.
The May 25th elections will elect the 700-and-something (750? 780? can't remember exactly) deputees from the 28 countries for the European Parliament, and those deputees will elect, after, the new President of the European Comission. There's the expectation that, despite both the EPP and the S&D groups will see a decrease in votes, the S&D might win and they want Martin Schulz (a german!... of course) for president.
The European elections, in most countries, usually have high rates of abstention, people don't care much because they feel it doesn't affect much the national policies (although I think it does and a lot... too much, in fact). Also, in many countries (Portugal is a good example), the European elections are usually the elections where the voters severely punish the party that is in the Government in their own country and go for the "vote of protest". With all this mess in many countries, we can expect an increase of this voting attitude.

How influential the institutions (some elected, some are not*) are for the life of the member-states? Well, that depends on the size/importance of the country, if the country is in a demonstration of force or if it's economically and politically sick...

Durão Barroso was not directly elected. He was "put" there by the parliament. Jean-Claude Juncker was not elected, was "put" there. Mario Draghi was not elected as well.
Part of the problem of these institutions is that many of these were not legitimized by the people, and even their permanence wasn't either. To most of the countries, no one was asked if the people of these countries wanted to join the EEC/EU, no one was asked about the ratification of the Maastricht Treaty which led to the Euro, of the "Stability and Growth" program (which is not), of the (illegal) Budget Intragovernamental Treaty, of the Nice and Lisbon treaties, etc.
For example, if you ask a slovakian about a spanish deputee deciding or making a law about his country, I highly doubt that he recognizes legitimacy in that person to decide whatsoever about Slovakia, and vice-versa (and apply it to other cases).
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Old 03-16-2014, 04:28 PM   #150
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apparently many are now posting and tweeting

"I Am a Russian"

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On the streets of Simferopol, blue-and-yellow Ukrainian flags were nowhere to seen but red, white and blue Russian and Crimean flags fluttered in abundance.

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2014/03/16/2993...#storylink=cpy
this situation has gone from very bad to now even more dangerous

I really can't even guess what is next.
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