Howard Zinn - RIP

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The American Peoples' voice is now silent.

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Believe the history you were taught in school.

It does not matter it is not factual or even close to accurate.


Howard Zinn, historian who challenged status quo, dies at 87 - Local News Updates - The Boston Globe
 
I tried several times to read A People's History, and never made it more than a quarter of the way through it.

RIP.
 
We're reading a couple chapters from A People's History in a class of mine right now.

RIP
 
I loved him. :heart:

RIP.

I had the honor of meeting him when the Voices of the People's History event came to my town. He was the kind of man who was more interested in hearing about you than talking about himself. A real gentleman.
 
Put away the flags | The Progressive
On this July 4, we would do well to renounce nationalism and all its symbols: its flags, its pledges of allegiance, its anthems, its insistence in song that God must single out America to be blesse

Is not nationalism -- that devotion to a flag, an anthem, a boundary so fierce it engenders mass murder -- one of the great evils of our time, along with racism, along with religious hatred?

We need to refute the idea that our nation is different from, morally superior to, the other imperial powers of world history.

We need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation.

This is the poison that has seeped into modern liberalism and the Democratic Party. It is why politics is now so polarized. We can't even agree that the American Ideal, history and character to be defended and preserved, not apologized for and fundamentally transformed.
 
I wouldn't say we need to go as far as that first sentence in the first quote suggests, there's nothing wrong with having that stuff around and I don't find it bothersome at all. But there are a lot of things in that article I can't exactly disagree with.

Anywho, I, um, have never read A People's History-don't believe I'd ever even heard of it until now (though I'd heard Zinn's name before) :reject:. I'll work on fixing that now, though. Sounded like quite a fascinating guy, shame to hear this-rest in peace, Mr. Zinn :(.
 
Put away the flags | The Progressive




This is the poison that has seeped into modern liberalism and the Democratic Party. It is why politics is now so polarized. We can't even agree that the American Ideal, history and character to be defended and preserved, not apologized for and fundamentally transformed.

Indy! I still think you're a good guy. You are certainly much easier to have a discussion with than Strongbow or even some of the liberal people here. But come on.

You must have missed all the flags at the Democratic National Convention.

Has Obama moved the flags from the White House?

Ordered Independence Day celebrations stopped?

Nancy Pelosi said this: Citizens of the empire: the struggle ... - Google Books

And a real America hating crazy, Robert Jensen, took exception.

Show me one person of influence in the Democratic Party who has said anything close to some of the crazier things Howard Zinn said.

This is what is wrong with your posts, you take one person, Howard Zinn, who is not anywhere near the views of the Democratic Party- either the platform or individual politicians- and tie his words around every Democrat's neck.

Howard Zinn was not a bad guy at all(I met him at many Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder concerts I worked at) but he was a left wing radical, not a Democrat or a mainstream American liberal.

This was someone whose views were far, far to the left of anything Barbara Boxer or Bernie Sanders would ever advocate. He strongly disliked the politics of Kerry and Kennedy. I know many Democratic politicians in New England and I can assure you, Zinn was never a dinner guest.

I know you follow politics, so you know the difference. So the only option left is you are intentionally misleading.

There is most certainly uniform agreement on the preservation of the American ideal and character. Obama for one has argued eloquently for American ideals leading the world and made clear that we will continue to be the top military and economic power in the world.

No one is fundamentally transforming American ideals, and renouncing torture(which had never been used by America before) and rebuilding decades old alliances is not apologizing for American ideals, it is defending them.

Your post accusing those who disagree with you politically of lacking in respect for America is exactly why American politics are so polarized today. The Tea Party does the same thing to Obama, demonizes him to the point where any Republican working with him would be akin to working with the devil. This makes it hard to get anything done.

Washington was nowhere near as partisan a place until Gingrich and crowd came along.
 
^Smart guy, this U2387. Smart guy.

My country is like my family. I love my family, I want to see my family do well and thrive. I'm proud of my family. If I had to I'd die for my family, I would.

But that doesn't mean I think my family is always right.

And it doesn't meant that I think my family is better than your family.

Believing that doesn't "disrespect" my family, or my country.
 
This is the poison that has seeped into modern liberalism and the Democratic Party. It is why politics is now so polarized. We can't even agree that the American Ideal, history and character to be defended and preserved, not apologized for and fundamentally transformed.


"defended and preserved" or "lorded over all others and smooshed in their faces."

does it ever occur to you, INDY, that people in other countries are happy and wouldn't trade places with you, even if you threw in an SUV, a case of Bud, and Colts tickets?

why do you need not just to feel special, but superior?
 
Thanks INDY for screwing up another thread.

Not believing in American Exceptionalism does not equal poison.

To Zinn's family. R.I.P.
 
Indy! I still think you're a good guy. You are certainly much easier to have a discussion with than Strongbow or even some of the liberal people here. But come on.

You must have missed all the flags at the Democratic National Convention.

Has Obama moved the flags from the White House?

Ordered Independence Day celebrations stopped?

Nancy Pelosi said this: Citizens of the empire: the struggle ... - Google Books

And a real America hating crazy, Robert Jensen, took exception.

Show me one person of influence in the Democratic Party who has said anything close to some of the crazier things Howard Zinn said.

This is what is wrong with your posts, you take one person, Howard Zinn, who is not anywhere near the views of the Democratic Party- either the platform or individual politicians- and tie his words around every Democrat's neck.

Howard Zinn was not a bad guy at all(I met him at many Pearl Jam/Eddie Vedder concerts I worked at) but he was a left wing radical, not a Democrat or a mainstream American liberal.

This was someone whose views were far, far to the left of anything Barbara Boxer or Bernie Sanders would ever advocate. He strongly disliked the politics of Kerry and Kennedy. I know many Democratic politicians in New England and I can assure you, Zinn was never a dinner guest.

I know you follow politics, so you know the difference. So the only option left is you are intentionally misleading.

There is most certainly uniform agreement on the preservation of the American ideal and character. Obama for one has argued eloquently for American ideals leading the world and made clear that we will continue to be the top military and economic power in the world.

No one is fundamentally transforming American ideals, and renouncing torture(which had never been used by America before) and rebuilding decades old alliances is not apologizing for American ideals, it is defending them.

Your post accusing those who disagree with you politically of lacking in respect for America is exactly why American politics are so polarized today. The Tea Party does the same thing to Obama, demonizes him to the point where any Republican working with him would be akin to working with the devil. This makes it hard to get anything done.

Washington was nowhere near as partisan a place until Gingrich and crowd came along.


Didn't Obama campaign they he was going to" bring about The fundenmental transformation of America" and then go on the world" I am soooo sorry tour? "
 
"defended and preserved" or "lorded over all others and smooshed in their faces."

does it ever occur to you, INDY, that people in other countries are happy and wouldn't trade places with you, even if you threw in an SUV, a case of Bud, and Colts tickets?

why do you need not just to feel special, but superior?

"that people in other countries are happy and wouldn't trade places with you, "

So why are so many sneaking across the Border, in addition to the 30-40 million who already here ? Vacation? legit question I am sure it's not for the colts game . I think they would take the beer and SUV though . They take them here by the 100's every day
 
Only heard about the guy last year. Just bought his book about US history since 1492 a couple of months ago.
 
Didn't Obama campaign they he was going to" bring about The fundenmental transformation of America" and then go on the world" I am soooo sorry tour? "

Yes, he was referring to the politics, the partisan climate, actually addressing the big challenges facing us instead of kicking them down the road.

That should have been clear if you watched him campaign.

He wasn't talking about rewriting our ideals or our Constitution or our values or changing our flag to the UN flag.

In fact, he talked very eloquently about our values.

He never said anything about an I am so Sorrrry Tour.

Again, how is renouncing torture and rebuilding crucial alliances not in keeping with American values and the Constitution.

The former is more abstract, but it is directly in the latter that we do not torture.(treaties being the equivalent of the highest law of the land)
 
Indy! I still think you're a good guy. You are certainly much easier to have a discussion with than Strongbow or even some of the liberal people here. But come on.

Has Obama moved the flags from the White House?

No, but he did order to have them removed from his lapel for a time.
Show me one person of influence in the Democratic Party who has said anything close to some of the crazier things Howard Zinn said.

This is what is wrong with your posts, you take one person, Howard Zinn, who is not anywhere near the views of the Democratic Party- either the platform or individual politicians- and tie his words around every Democrat's neck.

But much of the Democratic voter base shares or sympathizes with the "radical" beliefs of Mr Zinn. It is their political home.

The Marxism and multiculturalism of academia.
The Black theology of Rev Wright and others.
The socialism and misanthropism of environmental extremism.
The anti-militarism of Moveon (Gen Betrayus) and Code Pink.
And the anti-capitalism of Michael Moore, George Soros, far-left blogs and the anti-globalist crowd.
 
But much of the Democratic voter base shares or sympathizes with the "radical" beliefs of Mr Zinn. It is their political home.

The Marxism and multiculturalism of academia.
The Black theology of Rev Wright and others.
The socialism and misanthropism of environmental extremism.
The anti-militarism of Moveon (Gen Betrayus) and Code Pink.
And the anti-capitalism of Michael Moore, George Soros, far-left blogs and the anti-globalist crowd.

You're awesome :up:
 
No, but he did order to have them removed from his lapel for a time.


But much of the Democratic voter base shares or sympathizes with the "radical" beliefs of Mr Zinn. It is their political home.

The Marxism and multiculturalism of academia.
The Black theology of Rev Wright and others.
The socialism and misanthropism of environmental extremism.
The anti-militarism of Moveon (Gen Betrayus) and Code Pink.
And the anti-capitalism of Michael Moore, George Soros, far-left blogs and the anti-globalist crowd.

I'm not sure about that all of that list (George Soros an anti-capitalist? Is it automatically anti-military to be anti-war? And, frankly, what's wrong with anti-militarism anyway?), but where I'd probably agree with you is that modern day liberalism started off with some good ideas and ended up trying to control people - and that's what gave rise to points 1 and 3.
 
But much of the Democratic voter base shares or sympathizes with the "radical" beliefs of Mr Zinn. It is their political home.

The Marxism and multiculturalism of academia.
The Black theology of Rev Wright and others.
The socialism and misanthropism of environmental extremism.
The anti-militarism of Moveon (Gen Betrayus) and Code Pink.
And the anti-capitalism of Michael Moore, George Soros, far-left blogs and the anti-globalist crowd.

Seriously? Look, FYM's pretty left-leaning right? How many liberal FYM posters subscribe to the above?

Marxism? I mean really? Black theology. . .I'm not even sure what that is.

Who is Code Pink?

INDY, you know more about this left-wing stuff than I do and I'm supposed to be the liberal.

I'm sorry but most Democratic voters do NOT fit this picture any more than most Republican voters are members of the Klu Klux Klan.

Gosh, I can't remember the last time you brought a normal argument into this forum. Stick to the one-liners. At least they are funny.
 
No, but he did order to have them removed from his lapel for a time.


But much of the Democratic voter base shares or sympathizes with the "radical" beliefs of Mr Zinn. It is their political home.

The Marxism and multiculturalism of academia.
The Black theology of Rev Wright and others.
The socialism and misanthropism of environmental extremism.
The anti-militarism of Moveon (Gen Betrayus) and Code Pink.
And the anti-capitalism of Michael Moore, George Soros, far-left blogs and the anti-globalist crowd.


other than creating boogeymen -- and i have serious doubts as to whether you have any kind of understanding of any of these terms -- what does this list do for us, exactly? you name this amorphous "base," but can you name me any major Democrats who vocally advocate *any* of the above?

i think you'd pity the poor Democratic "base" since they're not nearly as well catered to as the GOP base.
 
"I think people are dazzled by Obama's rhetoric, and that people ought to begin to understand that Obama is going to be a mediocre president — which means, in our time, a dangerous president — unless there is some national movement to push him in a better direction."

~Howard Zinn
 
"I think people are dazzled by Obama's rhetoric, and that people ought to begin to understand that Obama is going to be a mediocre president — which means, in our time, a dangerous president — unless there is some national movement to push him in a better direction."

~Howard Zinn
I don't think he meant the tea-party movement.
 
Is it automatically anti-military to be anti-war? And, frankly, what's wrong with anti-militarism anyway?),
No, I'm talking about the anti-militarism that fails to recognize that wars are fought for many worthwhile reasons including protection of freedoms and home as well as wars to liberate the oppressed. They see no valid wars. They are the type of liberal that bans military recruiters from college campuses (cough, cough, Elena Kagan, cough).

but where I'd probably agree with you is that modern day liberalism started off with some good ideas and ended up trying to control people - and that's what gave rise to points 1 and 3.

Classic liberalism died with JFK leading to neoconservatism among other things.
 
other than creating boogeymen -- and i have serious doubts as to whether you have any kind of understanding of any of these terms -- what does this list do for us, exactly? you name this amorphous "base," but can you name me any major Democrats who vocally advocate *any* of the above?

i think you'd pity the poor Democratic "base" since they're not nearly as well catered to as the GOP base.

I don't say that these groups make up a large number of actual voters in the Democratic Party. But disproportionately they make up those that donate time and money. They are very vocal consistently tugging the party more leftward. Notice Moveon and Daily Kos notifying Congress they would actively campaign against Democrats that voted no on healthcare.
 
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