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Old 11-21-2008, 01:53 PM   #151
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Conservatives like to pretend they're for smaller government, but they're only for reducing the parts they don't like while still growing the parts they do. "Small government" is just a buzzphrase.


remember "compassionate conservativism"? more rightly called "jesus-y socialism."
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Old 11-21-2008, 03:04 PM   #152
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Moderates are the problem. They cave under pressure. Bush and McCain are moderates and they didn't get any credit from either side. BTW Palin's religion is personal. She isn't going to eliminate science. The way the left looks at global warming and faith in government bureacracy could easily be an "opiate for the masses" as anything any Christian believes.



I'm not going to comment on the clothes thing because there are competing stories and I don't know what the truth of the matter is. Certainly she lives within her means easily because she's rich and her husband is a business owner.

There is hypocrisy in the Republican party. Just look at the corruption Ted Stevens and Foley. Or Gingrich and his extramarital affair. Hypocrisy has to do with having a code of behaviour to follow and giving into impulses that pushes you away from that behaviour. It's not a surprise that Catholics look at Christianity as a narrow path because it's easy to fall off the wagon being the human beings we are. This doesn't nulify the code of conduct but I just don't expect all people will get there. BTW Palin has a good record in Alaska and I'm sure she will continue it. She probably didn't start out all that conservative in the first place but she was able to take on her own party and show strengh where many others did not. Democrats don't have that discipline at all. If democrats in congress see imperfections in Palin they are obviously not looking at themselves and are not trying to compete with conservatives in fiscal responsibility. Two wrongs don't make a right.

I think there are better communicators than Palin and she should just focus on congress. What matters in the end is the actual work. I haven't seen any skeletons in Jindal's closet yet.
I wasn't saying that they need a moderate leader, I was saying that they need a leader who is a real Republican, not the bastardized version of a Republican that we've seen in recent decades - someone who is a fiscal conservative, but not a social conservative or a member of the religious right. Someone who will attract moderate and independent voters. Palin isn't the person to do this, obviously.

I remember reading about their financial statements they submitted to the campaign, and no, by the usual standard that politicians are measured against, the Palins are not wealthy. They're not starving or anything, but they're certainly not wealthy. I'm not sure where you're getting that they're rich. She gets her governor's salary and all the perks she's taken with that (the per diem the state is paying her to live in her own house, the free trips and accommodations for her family that the state is paying for, etc.). Her husband is an oil field worker - a very good wage, I'm sure, but then again, Alaska has a very high cost of living, plus, they have a large family to support by today's standards. I think he also does some commercial fishing on the side - is this the business you're referring to? At one point, he was a part owner of a car wash, but I don't think he has that any longer. Competing stories about the campaign clothes? I posted the official story, the one the campaign told many, many times to defend her, that the clothes were bought for her (the amount isn't in dispute, it's always been around 150k, although I have heard rumours of it being higher, but they're only rumours), and that after the campaign they were being "donated." I'm just saying that I don't believe for a second that they would have been donated if the campaign hadn't found itself with such a PR mess on it's hands. Those clothes would have found a nice home for themselves back in Alaska. So is she 'wealthy' enough to have gone out and bought herself 150k worth of clothing in one shot? Hardly. So, those are not the kind of means that she can afford to live within.

Palin has a "good record in Alaska?" Define "good record." Bridge to nowhere? Highest earmark money received? Found guilty of a breach of ethics? (The real investigative team, a bipartisan one, found her guilty. The one that found her not guilty was a BS thing she threw together herself, to try to dispute the real one.) Or are you talking approval ratings? Certainly her approval ratings are going to be high for now - she hasn't been in power long enough for the public to be disillusioned with her yet, plus there's those big, fat oil cheques she's distributing to everyone, redistributing the wealth. Now that the price of oil has dropped, she won't even be able to balance the state budget, nevermind send out oil cheques to keep herself in power. I wonder what her approval ratings will look like in 6 months or a year.

It's not just her manner of speaking that people deride, it's that if you listen, she says absolutely nothing. The woman speaks in Republican talking points, nothing more. It's like she doesn't have the ability to say anything substantive. I've seen her do this many, many times. She'll be asked a question, then she'll come back with a vague talking point reply, then the interviewer will ask a follow up in an effort to actually get her to answer the question, and then she essentially repeats what she said the first time. She sounds like an automaton who's only been programmed to say four or five things, and beyond that, she's got nothing. Even though I don't agree with about 95% of what you say, you do seem like a reasonably intelligent fellow. Surely you must recognize her doing this? McCain was able to discuss policy changes he wanted to make. That ability was completely beyond her.
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Old 11-21-2008, 06:09 PM   #153
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remember "compassionate conservativism"? more rightly called "jesus-y socialism."
And it is a pity that the faith based initiatives which those people brought in are being retained by Obama.
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:07 PM   #154
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I wasn't saying that they need a moderate leader, I was saying that they need a leader who is a real Republican, not the bastardized version of a Republican that we've seen in recent decades - someone who is a fiscal conservative, but not a social conservative or a member of the religious right. Someone who will attract moderate and independent voters. Palin isn't the person to do this, obviously.

I remember reading about their financial statements they submitted to the campaign, and no, by the usual standard that politicians are measured against, the Palins are not wealthy. They're not starving or anything, but they're certainly not wealthy. I'm not sure where you're getting that they're rich. She gets her governor's salary and all the perks she's taken with that (the per diem the state is paying her to live in her own house, the free trips and accommodations for her family that the state is paying for, etc.). Her husband is an oil field worker - a very good wage, I'm sure, but then again, Alaska has a very high cost of living, plus, they have a large family to support by today's standards. I think he also does some commercial fishing on the side - is this the business you're referring to? At one point, he was a part owner of a car wash, but I don't think he has that any longer. Competing stories about the campaign clothes? I posted the official story, the one the campaign told many, many times to defend her, that the clothes were bought for her (the amount isn't in dispute, it's always been around 150k, although I have heard rumours of it being higher, but they're only rumours), and that after the campaign they were being "donated." I'm just saying that I don't believe for a second that they would have been donated if the campaign hadn't found itself with such a PR mess on it's hands. Those clothes would have found a nice home for themselves back in Alaska. So is she 'wealthy' enough to have gone out and bought herself 150k worth of clothing in one shot? Hardly. So, those are not the kind of means that she can afford to live within.

Palin has a "good record in Alaska?" Define "good record." Bridge to nowhere? Highest earmark money received? Found guilty of a breach of ethics? (The real investigative team, a bipartisan one, found her guilty. The one that found her not guilty was a BS thing she threw together herself, to try to dispute the real one.) Or are you talking approval ratings? Certainly her approval ratings are going to be high for now - she hasn't been in power long enough for the public to be disillusioned with her yet, plus there's those big, fat oil cheques she's distributing to everyone, redistributing the wealth. Now that the price of oil has dropped, she won't even be able to balance the state budget, nevermind send out oil cheques to keep herself in power. I wonder what her approval ratings will look like in 6 months or a year.

It's not just her manner of speaking that people deride, it's that if you listen, she says absolutely nothing. The woman speaks in Republican talking points, nothing more. It's like she doesn't have the ability to say anything substantive. I've seen her do this many, many times. She'll be asked a question, then she'll come back with a vague talking point reply, then the interviewer will ask a follow up in an effort to actually get her to answer the question, and then she essentially repeats what she said the first time. She sounds like an automaton who's only been programmed to say four or five things, and beyond that, she's got nothing. Even though I don't agree with about 95% of what you say, you do seem like a reasonably intelligent fellow. Surely you must recognize her doing this? McCain was able to discuss policy changes he wanted to make. That ability was completely beyond her.
Yeah but I could say the same thing about Obama. I didn't find substance in his speechs AT ALL. Just platitudes and raising expectations that he's already down playing. He's just smoother with his rhetoric than Palin. Yes she had a past of pork-barrel but she changed her mind whereas most everyone else just lapped it up. If there are any Republicans that have a "perfect" record I would like to see one. If Palin is John Kerry for being for something and then changing her mind later then how would Obama/Biden be tough on the deficit?

Palin's record on earmarks | Center for Investigative Reporting

There's some people who will desperately try to push for her candidacy despite the loss:

Washington Wire - WSJ.com : Group Plans Ads to Counter Palin Critics

Notice the MSNBC video. They don't listen to her talk about reigning in spending to deal with the low oil prices. They're obsessed with the turkeys in the background as if this is a problem. You can tell this movie is popular for MSNBC:

YouTube - Fargo Woodchipper Scene (gross)

YouTube - Sarah Palin meets Fargo

Republicans in congress just went with Democrats when it came to spending then they got replaced by Democrats. Why have Republicans if Democrats are the real thing?

Even Gingrich who was against the bailout got pushed into agreeing by economists. Now he can't be a presidential candidate anymore.

At least the McCain/Palin ticket wanted to cut spending. The war doesn't seem to be a problem since Obama wants to continue it and finish it off. She wanted to drill in Alaska (though stupidly McCain disagreed) and she was for more nuclear power since that is the most obvious cheaper green technology that won't destroy the economy. These are all things she communicated and I didn't have trouble understanding her.

I'll agree that she was naive about the TV media. She reminded me of Stockwell Day in Canada who had good ideas but couldn't communicate it well on TV. Also Rona Ambrose would actually freeze in front of media questions and got moved to a different file. What conservatives need in a communicator is someone who understands that the media doesn't ask questions to get detail but to create a story or template about you. I'll never forget a client I had who showed up on the news with a story about violent hockey parents and they edited the footage to make it like he was talking about himself. He was so pissed off on the phone the next day.

I'm sure I can find some cheap shots too:

YouTube - Stupid Quotes/Gaffes from Barack Obama

YouTube - Barack Obama - Gaffe Mania I - Dumber than Dumb

YouTube - Barack Obama - Gaffe Mania II - Hero of the Stupid
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:21 PM   #155
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It's not about gaffes. It's not even about policy. She is just a woman disconnected from anything beyond her tiny world. She is not an intelligent woman.

You are judging her intelligence based on her policy, but that's not how you judge intelligence, you judge intelligence by how that person came up with the policy, their reasoning behind their policy, and how they explain or implement the policies.

Defend your policies, defend your beliefs, but don't defend the stupid sanctions of your party. It's weak and it makes people question your intelligence. I really have to question anyone who believes Palin is intelligent, and my conservative girlfriend agrees with me.

Also, I'm so tired of you defending Republicans by a "well he didn't really want to but..." excuse. That's such bullshit! Unless you have a souce showing pictures of someone twisting his arm, then don't even try...
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Old 11-21-2008, 08:31 PM   #156
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It's not about gaffes. She is just a woman disconnected from anything beyond her tiny world. ...
your gaffe sounds a bit sexist.

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Old 11-21-2008, 08:43 PM   #157
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your gaffe sounds a bit sexist.

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Uh, no, it sounds pretty accurate.


purpleoscar, I think I overestimated you. You think Palin's a fine choice for '12? Fine. Be my guest, knock yourself out. In fact, I welcome it. So does every other liberal, I would imagine. It'll make things that much easier for us.
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Old 11-21-2008, 10:16 PM   #158
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youre just mad cuz she's not all butch.

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Old 11-21-2008, 10:40 PM   #159
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Let me get this straight - BVS is sexist, and I'm mad that she's feminine, implying some sort of jealousy on my part?

Oh yes, you've figured me out, Diamond, that must be it. Congrats.
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Old 11-21-2008, 11:13 PM   #160
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i'm considered an expert in a wide array of different fields.

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Old 11-21-2008, 11:23 PM   #161
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Moderates are the problem. They cave under pressure. Bush and McCain are moderates and they didn't get any credit from either side.

I'm as far to the left as it gets and disagree with Bush on how he handled everything. That makes him a far right choice. Hell, even stuff like being a conservative spender that I could have applauded him on for at least doing his job he couldn't even handle. Reckless spending doesn't make Bush a leftist. It makes him a freakin' idiot & a spoiled little rich kid who's never been told "we don't have the money" by his daddy. I can't believe people blame McCain's loss as him being "too moderate"...no, he voted for a lot of nonsense that the mainstream public either rejects outright or has come to be weary of (Iraq). McCain had no "working across the aisle"...he worked on finance reform because it affected his own Presidential campaigns while he totally dismissed his immigration work after he had begun making progress. Like Bush, he did absolutely nothing to appease Democrats but considered "working across the aisle" to be the same as fooling them into voting for Iraq or the Patriot Act, etc.

But that's okay. You neo-cons can keep thinking you need to go further to the right to win more elections.
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:03 AM   #162
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Not exactly. From my paradigm, it could also be said that Obama was at a disadvantage in the beginning.

But maybe you could explain how it seems different to you and Hillary?

Not true.

The USA was hungry to rid itself of it's racist past.

So much so that a gifted speaker came along sure, who smiles but flinches under unscripted moments.

He is the least questioned, vetted or scruntized elected president.

After the terrible bashing both hillary and sarah received, i'm starting to see that sexism can and does exist in politics, but we are forbidden to call the left on it.

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Old 11-22-2008, 12:09 AM   #163
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After the terrible bashing both hillary and sarah received,
My God the irony.

Change really does start with a long, hard look in the mirror.
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Old 11-22-2008, 12:58 AM   #164
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i applaud obama winning.

i think the country has officially turned a page.

i only wished that the contest was played more on a level playing field.

had not the economy been in the crapper, and our candidate had all of his bearings, it may have been a more interesting contest.



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Had McCain not been a bumbling old man with an incompetent ditz as his VP, it may have been a more interesting contest.
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Old 11-22-2008, 09:24 AM   #165
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Here's why you guys won in a nutshell.:

I speak with having participated directly or indirectly in general elections since 1972 and having a principled intellect.

Other than one time since 1952 after 8 years in office-the country always has elected a different party to the Presidency.

Secondly-the economy will give the challenger a 7-10 point advantage if it is bad during the race. Look at Reagan/Carter. Look at GHB/Clinton .

37-38% of Americans are GOP
43-44% are Democrat

The rest are Independent or other 10-15%

The Independents usually vote the economy-no matter who the President is.

The economy was in the sh*tter due to the Fannie and Freddie mess (thank you Dems)-also the pro longed War on Terror-(thank you Republicans)

I congradulate Obama on his win, however given the circumstances based on national and economic conditions in collusion with the Dinosuar MSMedia: Borat, The Love Guru or Wayne Campbell and Garth Alger could have beaten John McCain.

If the economy was humming along like in 2004-05-you may not have won, but probably still would have based on the opening reasons in this post.

Sorry to have to douse the Obamatron's ecstasy party with a cold glass of reality, carry on.

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