House Of Evil / Seed Of Peace

[nathan1977]

This is false. You're not very in tune with this subject. The articles even address that it doesn't cover all Muslims.

From the BBC:

"Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, as the word of God, the example of the life of the prophet Muhammad, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars."

From the CFR:

"Sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna--the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. "

Which of us is "in tune" again?

How are the UK courts having to enforce their rulings? You just pointed out that a couple can be divorced under UK law but not so under Sharia law. You're contradicting yourself left and right.

No, I'm not. In matters of family, finance, marriage, and divorce, even in the face of British law, sharia law takes precedence. This is rooted in the underlying philosophy of sharia law, which according to orthodox Islamic teaching is the only legitimate law in the world, with universal jurisdiction over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. As an example of the primacy of sharia, according to the CFR, "in Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam."

These tribunals DO NOT cover all Muslims, only those Mosques that have them. Therefore in a way it's by choice. These laws ARE NOT changing or being incorporated into the actual law of the land.

The fact that sharia law trumps British law when it comes to various matters contradicts you here. Some notable examples from another Daily Mail article:

Islamic sharia courts in Britain are now 'legally binding' | Mail Online

Cases handled by the courts so far include Muslim divorce and inheritance to nuisance neighbours, he said.

But as well as civil disputes they have also handled six cases of domestic violence.

In all six cases, he said, sharia judges ordered husbands to take anger management classes and mentoring from community elders, but issued no further punishment.

All the women subsequently withdrew their complaints to the police, who halted investigations.

Under normal British law those six cases could have been prosecuted as criminal, rather than “family” cases. But prosecuting the cases under sharia meant that British law had no jurisdiction.

Additionally, whether or not someone to chooses to follow a religion whose laws are at odds with the law of the land, does not mean that those laws no longer apply to that individual.

 

[nathan1977]

What you're describing goes on in the states, but maybe to a lesser degree. Just like your example of divorce, the Catholic church has certain "laws" that don't recognize the law of the land.

Yes, which contributed to the cone of silence that allowed priests to molest thousands of children while investigators and prosecutors were kept at bay.

Great idea, that.

 

[BVS]

Yes, which contributed to the cone of silence that allowed priests to molest thousands of children while investigators and prosecutors were kept at bay.

Great idea, that.

I wasn't claiming it was a great idea.

 

[BVS]

From the BBC:

"Sharia law is Islam's legal system. It is derived from both the Koran, as the word of God, the example of the life of the prophet Muhammad, and fatwas - the rulings of Islamic scholars."

From the CFR:

"Sharia guides all aspects of Muslim life including daily routines, familial and religious obligations, and financial dealings. It is derived primarily from the Quran and the Sunna--the sayings, practices, and teachings of the Prophet Mohammed. "

Which of us is "in tune" again?

Sharia law is interpreted and implemented in very different ways, just like there are several different interpretations and implementations amongst Christian religions.

How many Catholics in the US adhere to no contraception?

So I ask again, how many Muslims have to answer to these tribunals?

"some Muslims" was the phrase used at least twice in these articles.

No, I'm not. In matters of family, finance, marriage, and divorce, even in the face of British law, sharia law takes precedence. This is rooted in the underlying philosophy of sharia law, which according to orthodox Islamic teaching is the only legitimate law in the world, with universal jurisdiction over Muslims and non-Muslims alike. As an example of the primacy of sharia, according to the CFR, "in Pakistan, Egypt, Iran, and Iraq, among others, it is also forbidden to enact legislation that is antithetical to Islam."



The fact that sharia law trumps British law when it comes to various matters contradicts you here. Some notable examples from another Daily Mail article:

Islamic sharia courts in Britain are now 'legally binding' | Mail Online

From this article:

Critics fear Britain's Islamic hard-liners will now try to make sharia law the dominant legal system in Muslim neighbourhoods, and warn that women often receive less favourable treatment at the hands of the traditional Islamic courts.

Wait, I thought it already was?! How can this be? You said ALL Muslims are ruled under these tribunals.

Sharia courts have operated unofficially for years among Britain's Muslim communities but until now their rulings could not be enforced, relying instead on parties agreeing voluntarily.

Wait again!!! You mean they aren't official?! But Nathan said...

They found a loop hole, and I hope they find a way to correct it.

But you're being driven by fear. You started this whole debate by saying that the UK as a whole is incorporating Sharia into the law of the land, and as we see that's not the truth.

 

[nathan1977]

Sharia law is interpreted and implemented in very different ways, just like there are several different interpretations and implementations amongst Christian religions.

No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.

Wait, I thought it already was?! How can this be? You said ALL Muslims are ruled under these tribunals.

No, I said that all Muslims are ruled under sharia law. The six tribunals currently set up in the UK merely administer it.

Sharia courts have operated unofficially for years among Britain's Muslim communities but until now their rulings could not be enforced, relying instead on parties agreeing voluntarily.

Wait again!!! You mean they aren't official?! But Nathan said...

As the Daily Mail article I posted pointed out, sharia law has been on the rise since 1982, when the first tribunals started operating outside of British law. In 2008, sharia law was officially recognized by the UK government. In 2009, it was ruled that British courts had to enforce sharia law. Prior to 2008, the laws weren't official according to the British government (though they were binding for Muslims according to the primacy of sharia); now they are. Kind of the definition of "encroachment".

But you're being driven by fear.

No, I'm being driven by reality.

You started this whole debate by saying that the UK as a whole is incorporating Sharia into the law of the land, and as we see that's not the truth.

Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.

In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.

 

[Diemen]

Let's see if we can pick out the more appropriate response:

This is false. You're not very in tune with this subject.

This is false.

 

[Diemen]

No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.

But do they really? I'm not feigning ignorance here, but I can see what BVS is arguing. Technically all Catholics are compelled to follow the Church's teachings, but that certainly doesn't mean that all Catholics actually do. I have several Muslim friends who don't follow sharia law to the letter, and yet still consider themselves devout Muslims.

Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.

In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.

I think while this may be a very valid area of concern for British citizens, I don't quite think it translates over to the U.S. all that well. We have a decidedly different legal system, a decidedly different governmental setup, and a decidedly different culture. It's definitely not a one-to-one, 'it happened there so it will happen here if we don't act' translation. And definitely not enough of a threat, at least in my eyes, to start curtailing the religious freedoms of large segment of American citizens.

 

[hiphop]

If you're a practicing Muslim, you're under Sharia. Regardless of the country's laws in which you live.

Erm, when you´re a Muslim you´re subject to the laws of the country you live in. In so-called democracies, this is called separation of church and state. Muslims all over Europe will have a serious problem if they follow Sharia law and stone someone to death. In good old Europe, nowadays it´s called murder (it´s good to remember it wasn´t always like that - just remember the inquisition and the burning of witches!).

By the way, didn´t we want to forbid Catholic nuns to wear headscarfs?

 

[nathan1977]

Technically all Catholics are compelled to follow the Church's teachings, but that certainly doesn't mean that all Catholics actually do. I have several Muslim friends who don't follow sharia law to the letter, and yet still consider themselves devout Muslims.

Islam as practiced in the West has tended to resemble other Western religions in terms of its followers -- a split between the devout (church once a week), the committed (church once a month), and the casual (church once a year). The numbers I've seen are usually around a 40/30/30 split. Part of this is due to the West's secular nature. However, England -- like Europe -- has seen a dramatic influx of Muslim immigrants over the past 15-20 years, and these immigrants tend to be more devout in nature. Part of it may be the nature of the immigrant experience -- in a new environment, prior cultural norms (such as religious practices) take on a heightened role. Additionally, in a 2007 survey the Pew Research Center found that eighty-one percent of all Muslims in the UK considered themselves "first as Muslims, rather than citizens of their countries." (As opposed to only 47% in the U.S.) However, this tendency to use religion as a primary means of self-identification is significant. It explains the rise of sharia law in the UK, but it also complicates matters when it comes to legal issues.

I think while this may be a very valid area of concern for British citizens, I don't quite think it translates over to the U.S. all that well. We have a decidedly different legal system, a decidedly different governmental setup, and a decidedly different culture. It's definitely not a one-to-one, 'it happened there so it will happen here if we don't act' translation.

While I don't disagree that the UK and the US are very different from one another, when such encroachment takes place in the UK, it bears vigilance. Turkey, which has always been hailed as the model of a secular Muslim culture, has found the separation of church and state a struggle to maintain, and the various threads on FYM about religion and politics -- regardless of whatever side people land -- attest to that fact even in the US.

And definitely not enough of a threat, at least in my eyes, to start curtailing the religious freedoms of large segment of American citizens.

Here we definitely agree.

 

[nathan1977]

when you´re a Muslim you´re subject to the laws of the country you live in.

Not necessarily in the UK, as we have exhaustively discussed in this thread.

 

[hiphop]

Not necessarily in the UK, as we have exhaustively discussed in this thread.

Who cares, laws in the UK are a giant clusterfuck anyway.

 

[BVS]

No doubt, but all Muslims have to follow sharia law. Interpretations of the law may vary, but the law remains.

Sharia actually translates to 'Justice'. All Christians have to honor their mother and father. But this doesn't translate into all Muslims are governed by the tribunals, this is the part you seem to be ignoring.

No, I said that all Muslims are ruled under sharia law. The six tribunals currently set up in the UK merely administer it.

Ok, now we're finally getting somewhere. You didn't seem to want to acknowledge the fact that not all Muslims are being subject to this tribunal Sharia law.

Ask the six British citizens who were beaten by their husbands and told to return to them.

How many young girls in the US were forced to wives due to some misinterpretted Mormon law? There were conservatives that said the US government should have intervened. But British law eventually intervened.

In 2008, the British government allowed for a separate legal system to enact its own laws within the country, over a specific segment of its citizens. That separate legal system has laws that at times conflict with established laws and legal principles, over which the British government decided they would not have jurisdiction, but would nonetheless have to enforce. Hence, many of its citizens are now ruled by Sharia, not British law -- hence, the British government has incorporated Sharia into the law of the land.

How did the British government decided they would "nonetheless have to enforce"?

 

[kramwest1]

In the U.S., I would worry more about custom than law. The large Somali population here in Minneapolis are largely Muslim, but their custom of female genital mutilation still is being practiced. I don't think Islam says anything about that.


For my part, if the U.S. is going to embrace some religious law as part of our government system, let's make it the Kosher food laws. We might see less E-coli in our food system.

 

[namkcuR]

I have been apathetic to this issue, not feeling strongly one way or another, until recently, when I really started thinking about it.

First off, this building is not a mosque; it is an Islamic community center. Not that the terminology makes any difference; whatever you call it, they have the right to build it wherever they want to.

If these people are forced by anyone to re-locate their community center, then those who forced them will be sending a dangerous message to every single person who cannot disassociate Islam from 9/11: "You're right. All Muslims are violent fanatics who hate the U.S.A. and freedom."

This message fuels, propagates, enables, and encourages the racist mindsets that make it so difficult for some to make the aforementioned disassociation. It also re-enforces the uneducated and simple-minded view that violent fanatical Muslims from the Middle East are violent and fanatical because they're Muslims, when in reality it's because they grow up poor, uneducated, angry, and feeling unheard, and because of all of that are vulnerable when they are ultimately brainwashed, manipulated, and used by people like Bin Laden to do their dirty work.

The level of baseless, ignorant, dangerous hatred that a large number of people in this country feel towards Muslims has got to be denounced and held in contempt by those that can be heard so that it is eventually denounced and held in contempt by all. I remember, during the 2008 campaign, Colin Powell was on one of the Sunday morning news programs one Sunday morning a few weeks before the election, and he was addressing the "Obama is a Muslim" BS, and he said something along the lines of, Obama isn't a Muslim, but so what if he was? And I have a great deal of respect for Powell for being one of the few prominent political figures that publicly said that, because he was challenging the same kind of rampant anti-Muslim mindsets behind this debate. More prominent political figures, or hell, prominent figures period, need to speak against these mindsets like that, so that we as a people become better educated and less hateful.

 

[A stor]

In the U.S., I would worry more about custom than law. The large Somali population here in Minneapolis are largely Muslim, but their custom of female genital mutilation still is being practiced. I don't think Islam says anything about that.


For my part, if the U.S. is going to embrace some religious law as part of our government system, let's make it the Kosher food laws. We might see less E-coli in our food system.

I thought FGM was illegal through out the U.S. Since, it is very dangerous and there is no medical reason, what so ever to do it. Is it being done outside the medical community? Because, I haven't heard of any DR.s in Maryland hospitals or medical centers, doing this procedure.

 

[kramwest1]

I thought FGM was illegal through out the U.S. Since, it is very dangerous and there is no medical reason, what so ever to do it. Is it being done outside the medical community? Because, I haven't heard of any DR.s in Maryland hospitals or medical centers, doing this procedure.

It is being done by the girls' mothers/elder women, obviously outside the medical community--at least until they can't stop the girls' bleeding and decide to go to the ER.

It is fascinating to talk to ER staff BTW.

 

[A stor]

It is being done by the girls' mothers/elder women, obviously outside the medical community--at least until they can't stop the girls' bleeding and decide to go to the ER.

It is fascinating to talk to ER staff BTW.

Thank you for you reply.

I have read that FGM is still praticed in some African Countries. Because of ancient tribal and religious beliefs to ensure the young girl is "a virgin and ready for marriage." They believe it is a shaming of her family, if she refuses. Sewing closed, a rusty, disease infected razor and no medical treatment.

Too many little girls have died from this.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

I saw some of this show, it was too depressing for me and I had to turn it off

Franklin Graham: Muslims In America Are Here To Build Mosques And Convert People | Mediaite

 

[A stor]

Thank you MrsSringsteen for the link.

Interesting debate. I liked when the lady said it shouldn't be a debate about who's religion has caused the most horror on earth. She was spot on.

 

[kramwest1]

I saw some of this show, it was too depressing for me and I had to turn it off

Franklin Graham: Muslims In America Are Here To Build Mosques And Convert People | Mediaite

Phew!

I'm so glad Islam is the only missionary religion. Now, I know who to avoid.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

“They want to build as many mosques and cultural centers as they possibly can so they can convert as many Americans as they can to Islam."

...or they could be building them so that people who are Islamic and live in the U.S. have a place of their own to go to worship, just like every other religion has? Wacky idea, I know.

I really wish this sort of silliness was all I had to think about every day. It must be nice to have such a simple, non-complicated life free of any other concerns.

Angela

 

[A stor]

...or they could be building them so that people who are Islamic and live in the U.S. have a place of their own to go to worship, just like every other religion has? Wacky idea, I know.

I really wish this sort of silliness was all I had to think about every day. It must be nice to have such a simple, non-complicated life free of any other concerns.

Angela

Exactly. A new mosque was built in White Marsh, Maryland. It can accomidate over five hundred people. Much better than the smaller place they were using for prayer.

 

[anitram]

I saw some of this show, it was too depressing for me and I had to turn it off

Franklin Graham: Muslims In America Are Here To Build Mosques And Convert People | Mediaite

I remember my college and law school days very well. And I also remember never being approached by a Muslim preaching about anything, much less conversion. And I also remember Campus for Jesus or Christ on Campus or whatever the various groups were called, mercilessly irritating me in person and with their pamphlets. There was also the time when they approached my roommate and when she finally asked to be left alone by them, replied with "Don't you WANT to be saved??"

 

[kramwest1]

I remember my college and law school days very well. And I also remember never being approached by a Muslim preaching about anything, much less conversion. And I also remember Campus for Jesus or Christ on Campus or whatever the various groups were called, mercilessly irritating me in person and with their pamphlets. There was also the time when they approached my roommate and when she finally asked to be left alone by them, replied with "Don't you WANT to be saved??"

Boy, Muslims in America must need to fire their marketing and P.R. agency if they are going to succeed in their plan.
I haven't ever been approached to convert. No pamphlets. No knocks on the screen door on the weekends.
And, they do have what some might call an image problem.

"Hey, come join Islam. Probably the most misunderstood and hated religious group in America. Free Madrassa education for your children."

 

[A stor]

Boy, Muslims in America must need to fire their marketing and P.R. agency if they are going to succeed in their plan.
I haven't ever been approached to convert. No pamphlets. No knocks on the screen door on the weekends.
And, they do have what some might call an image problem.

"Hey, come join Islam. Probably the most misunderstood and hated religious group in America. Free Madrassa education for your children."

My son and daughter in law are Muslim. They live in my house. Saving up for a down payment on a home. And neither one of them have tried to convert me.

Catholics, Muslims, coexisting in the same home. Imagine that!

 

[kramwest1]

My son and daughter in law are Muslim. They live in my house. Saving up for a down payment on a home. And neither one of them have tried to convert me.

Catholics, Muslims, coexisting in the same home. Imagine that!

I haven't been close friends with many Muslims, but the couple that I have spent a lot of time with have been incredibly well-versed in the 3 major religions and rather tolerant.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I can safely say I've never had to sit in a house for 35 minutes listening to Muslims extol the virtues of their faith (had to do that a while back with some Mormons. My sister's fiance answered the door and they were there and they didn't really know how to properly turn them away, so they invited them in and since it's their house, well... Nice people, but man, was I biting my tongue the whole time). Course, I've also had zero personal interaction with Muslims. But I don't exactly hear about them doing that sort of thing.

A stor, seriously, I want your life experience to be everyone's life experience . You sound like you've got a really good thing going.

Angela

 

[A stor]

Thanks Angela,

They will explain their faith if you ask them. But, they don't feel the need to convert anyone. I also know some other people who are Muslim. They want to be part of American society, not excluded. Two of them were born in Eygpt. Have been legal American citizens for over twenty years. They were just as horrified by 9/11 as the rest of us. Their daughters were born in America. They will be the first to tell you that flying planes into buildings and commiting mass murder. Goes against everything they believe in.

 

[A stor]

I haven't been close friends with many Muslims, but the couple that I have spent a lot of time with have been incredibly well-versed in the 3 major religions and rather tolerant.

I think you have brought up a very important point here. I believe the more you understand about religions. The more tolerant you become. There is more in common with the three major religions than differences. They do believe in the same God. Allah is an arabic word for God. This word is also used in Christian churches were Arabic is the primary language.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Thanks Angela,

They will explain their faith if you ask them. But, they don't feel the need to convert anyone.

Sounds like a great way to go about it. I have absolutely no problem discussing and learning more about people's faiths-you should have some knowledge, some understanding of different religions. Like you stated, it brings tolerance and respect, but it's also neat to learn something new. Religion does have a lot of fascinating history and culture and such, after all.

Just don't force it on people. I've never understood why people want to do that-wouldn't you want people to come to your faith because they genuinely wanted to? Where's the fun in having someone be part of a religion regardless of whether or not they actually want to be there? I would think any god would prefer sincere appreciation and praise rather than phony, "I'm only doing this 'cause someone made me do it" worship-they'll see through that. If people are truly interested, they'll seek it out on their own.

I also know some other people who are Muslim. They want to be part of American society, not excluded. Two of them were born in Eygpt. Have been legal American citizens for over twenty years.

Cool . Happy to have them among our country's citizens-would be interesting to talk with them sometime, I'm sure .

They were just as horrified by 9/11 as the rest of us. Their daughters were born in America. They will be the first to tell you that flying planes into buildings and commiting mass murder. Goes against everything they believe in.

I've no doubt about that-anyone who has any sort of compassion for humanity would be deeply upset by those events, no matter what their background. Not to mention, those idiots have cast an unfortunate bad light on their faith, now they have to worry about being treated with suspicion and fear because of a few creeps. And that's not fair to your friends. They did nothing wrong.

It's just so frustrating, the way we handle things in this world sometimes. We make life way more difficult and complicated than it really needs to be.

Angela