House Of Evil / Seed Of Peace

[Pearl]

Honestly, I could see their discomfort. Really! I think parents fear more about pedophiles than terrorists hurting their children. It would be unfair to the priests who are genuinely good and would not even think to hurting a child, but with a few rotten apples making everyone look bad, sometimes its better safe than sorry.

Also BoMac, you might be aware that I am horrified by the actions, or lack of actions, the Church has done in response to the scandals. I'm even shopping around for a non-Catholic church to attend.

 

[BoMac]

Honestly, I could see their discomfort. Really! I think parents fear more about pedophiles than terrorists hurting their children. It would be unfair to the priests who are genuinely good and would not even think to hurting a child, but with a few rotten apples making everyone look bad, sometimes its better safe than sorry.

Also BoMac, you might be aware that I am horrified by the actions, or lack of actions, the Church has done in response to the scandals. I'm even shopping around for a non-Catholic church to attend.

Fair enough. While understandable, do you feel that this fear is right, though? Or, would you prefer that this hypothetical Church be used to build bridges with whatever neighbourhood they choose to build in, rather than tear them down? Because this Islamic community centre can do just that and it's also an opportunity to show the world what the U.S. really stands for.

 

[deep]

now this

Ground Zero Mosque On The Move? �
NY

who wins?

 

[Pearl]

Fair enough. While understandable, do you feel that this fear is right, though? Or, would you prefer that this hypothetical Church be used to build bridges with whatever neighbourhood they choose to build in, rather than tear them down? Because this Islamic community centre can do just that and it's also an opportunity to show the world what the U.S. really stands for.

Perhaps it isn't right to think the fear is OK. Perhaps this center could build bridges. But honestly, only time will tell. There are plenty of people in NYC who do not want this mosque. You probably heard of the Jewish organization, the Anti-Defamation League, is against the mosque. I wouldn't be surprised if the Muslims at this mosque extend their hands only to be rejected by non-Muslims.

I don't know what to think about this center, really. I just hope whatever happens, it works out for the best.

 

[BoMac]

I wouldn't be surprised if the Muslims at this mosque extend their hands only to be rejected by non-Muslims.

And that is sad, sad, sad. It really saddens me to think that this would happen.

 

[trojanchick99]

This is f'ing ridiculous. Seriously, there is nothing better for the bozos at Faux News to talk about that building an Islamic Community Center in Lower Manhattan? This is another fear tactic by the right to try to win seats in the midterm elections and it really, really makes me angry.

Maybe they should ban Japanese people from Pearl Harbor since it's insensitive.

 

[financeguy]

Perhaps it isn't right to think the fear is OK. Perhaps this center could build bridges. But honestly, only time will tell. There are plenty of people in NYC who do not want this mosque. You probably heard of the Jewish organization, the Anti-Defamation League, is against the mosque. I wouldn't be surprised if the Muslims at this mosque extend their hands only to be rejected by non-Muslims.

The ADL, frankly, has a dodgy record in recent years. They started out with very good and noble aims but some of their recent campaigns seem to me to amount to calls for censorship. They shouldn't be assumed to represent the views of all American Jews.

 

[Irvine511]

I don't see how comparing what I said to building Catholic Churches near schools make any sense.

because the Catholic church has aided and abetted child abuse in ways far, far more pervasive than mosques have funded terrorism.

more kids have been raped by priests for the past 2,000 years than have innocents been killed by terrorists.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Funny, I brought up the very same argument about Catholic churches when I debated this with my family the other night.

On the other hand, there is some legal precedent for depriving private property owners of building where they want because of the common good. You can't build a bar next to a school, for example, or a strip club near a church.

I've seen bars right near, next door to, even, churches. And for a while there for a time a pro-life poster was up on the side OF a bar, which my sister and I always found rather interesting.

There's also a bed and breakfast right next door to a funeral home here in town. I'm pretty sure that's not the view most people who stay at a bed and breakfast want to see out their window, but hey...

Has the mosque four blocks from Ground Zero seen outbreaks of violence and racial hatred?

Haven't heard of anything of the sort, which makes me wonder why this one, which will be TWO blocks away, is getting all the fuss. If we can live with this when it's four blocks away, why is two such a big deal? It's still not right across the street or anything like that.

but, suddenly, Sarah Palin and Newt Gingrich are all over it. what they want is an issue driven by pure emotion in order to help their electoral chances in the fall. the GOP has been exploiting this tragedy since September 12, 2001, what with their phony "terror alerts/Code Orange" and holding the RNC convention in New York in 2004.

And that is perhaps what pisses me off the most about the Republican Party of the last decade. I'm sick to death of them calling people "un-American" and all that BS if we dare to support such measures as an Islamic center being built or disagree with the wars overseas or things of that nature. They're the ones who are exploiting tragedy for personal gain, and to me, that shows the utmost disrespect to those who died that day. Every time I hear those Republicans get on their high horse I want to tell them to shut the hell up.

Newt Gingrich isn't to be taken seriously anyway. He's said a load of dumb stuff over the years. And it's disappointing to see a Democrat, Reid, come out against this, too, but hey, he's gotta beat out a Republican (a hardcore Republican, too, from the sounds of it) in his state, so he's got to say what helps get him votes, regardless of whether or not he believes in what he says. So sad.

As for Obama, I'm glad he came out in support of the idea, but really, why does he need to be asked about it anyway? And why does he have to speculate on the "wisdom" of the project? No matter what he says, people have pretty much made up their minds one way or the other, so it's not like he's going to really sway anybody's viewpoint.

I also find it funny that government officials are so worried about how offensive this'll seem to people, 'cause I'm so sure our presence in certain areas of the Middle East isn't offensive to anyone there, right?

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

It's being used for political purposes because of course Obama is really a Muslim and at the very least he's a Muslim sympathizer and soft on terrorism. All you have to do is read some of the articles about this on the internet and some of the comments and you see why some people are trying to use it for political gain.

As soon as he commented on this it was open season.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

It's being used for political purposes because of course Obama is really a Muslim and at the very least he's a Muslim sympathizer and soft on terrorism. All you have to do is read some of the articles about this on the internet and some of the comments and you see why some people are trying to use it for political gain.

As soon as he commented on this it was open season.

Oh, you're certainly right about that, sadly. I just find the fact that we need to know his view funny-I know why people care, but I don't know why they need to care...if that makes any sort of sense . People make life way, way more complicated than it truly needs to be sometimes.

Angela

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Breitbart? Smart move there

politico.com Posted by Maggie Haberman 02:56 PM

August 17, 2010


An anti-mosque rally on 9/11

I'm one of the New York reporters who was within 10 blocks of ground zero when the second tower fell, and who covered rebuilding at the site for two years after Sept. 11, 2001, as a beat, and then on and off after — and I can say first-hand that there is usually a moratorium on political activity that day that's self-imposed.

So I was a bit surprised to see a rally being hosted by, among others, Pamela Geller, the conservative blogger who basically drove the mosque story off an initial New York Times story last December before the tabloids weighed in, on Sept. 11 this year, near the proposed mosque site.

The alert says that this is the list of confirmed speakers; 9/11 family members; former U. S. Ambassador to the United Nations John Bolton; former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich; Dutch Parliamentarian and freedom fighter Geert Wilders; Gary Berntsen, a candidate for the U.S. Senate from New York; Jordan Sekulow of the American Center for Law and Justice, which has filed suit to stop the so-called ground zero mosque; Ginny Thomas, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas's wife; Michael Grimm, a candidate for Congress from New York's 13th district and a Sept. 11 first responder; and blogger Andrew Breitbart.

I know that some opponents of the mosque may argue that this isn't a political rally because it's about this topic, but that's going to be a tough sell when Gingrich is listed as a speaker at the event.

UPDATE: Ben Smith has a Gingrich spokesman saying the former House speaker won't attend.

 

[Irvine511]

when does the Right not have a list of enemies?

how awful.

 

[BVS]

More conservatives showing their true colors... long live hate and bigotry, damnit celebrate your ignorance!!!

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

From Liz Cheney's group Keep America Safe. I've heard of it but I don't exactly know what they do. I just shudder to think what will become of the anniversary this year and it just adds sadness on top of sadness for me. Obviously meaningless compared to the sadness of people who lost loved ones, but it does. Gives me a very uneasy feeling-that all of this is being exploited for political gain.

YouTube - KeepAmericaSafe.com: WE REMEMBER

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Yeah, here's a wee bit of a newsflash, Liz Cheney et al: We remember, too. It's shocking, I know.

That video and the proposed date for the little "assembly" makes me mad on so many levels. Like I said before: Shut. The. Hell. Up.

(That's directed towards the politicians and the BS "we're keeping America safe" group. Not towards the actual people who lost loved ones that day-my heart goes out to them . It's shameful they've been exploited like this)

Angela

 

[DrTeeth]

Dutch Parliamentarian and freedom fighter Geert Wilders

Freedom fighter

 

[Irvine511]

this issue is the biggest nonsense distraction of the year. it has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING, and it proves, again, that the GOP is more than willing to kick a Muslim in order to scare up a few votes (not from lower Manhattan, either).

if people in the neighborhood, or, indeed, family members of the people who were killed on 9-11, wish to protest this center as people often protest a Wal-Mart, they are free to do so. i can even understand why some might find this inappropriate.

but the politicization of this issue is just about the most disgusting thing in politics i've seen in a while, and it goes hand-in-hand with protests of other mosques across the country, from Tennessee to Temeculah. it's bigotry, pure and simple, and it shocks me that Newt Gingrich can go on TV and compare Muslims to Nazis.

fuck you, Newt. and fuck you, Palin. go back to the same sewer from whence you came and continue to commune with the ghost of Joe McCarthy.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

AOL News

(Aug. 19) -- Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, using the words "hatred," "anger" and "pain," turned up his rhetoric today against plans for building an Islamic center two blocks from the site of the 9/11 attacks.

Although he acknowledged the legal and constitutional rights of Muslims to build the mosque near ground zero, he said in an NBC "Today" show interview that the question was not whether the development should go ahead but rather one of "sensitivity and people's feelings."

Giuliani also had strong words for the imam who would lead the mosque, Feisal Abdul Rauf, saying that if he portrays himself as a healer "then you don't go forward with this project," but that if you are "a warrior, then you do."

He added, "If you going to so horribly offend the people who were most directly offended by this" -- the families of the 9/11 victims -- then "how are you healing?"

Giuliani, who won praise for his leadership after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said the imam was a man who was "selling sensitivity," but that "you don't do it by creating this kind of vicious, sort of angry battle that's going on."

The imam, who is seen as a controversial figure even among U.S. Muslims, has on occasion criticized Islam and has spent a lot of his career working closely with Christians and Jews to try to advance interfaith understanding.

Calling plans for the development divisive, Giuliani said: "This project is creating tremendous pain for people who've already made the ultimate sacrifice. All you're doing is creating more division, more anger, more hatred."

When show host Matt Lauer said some would say that the angry battle was being created by those weighing in on the project, Giuliani replied: "They're all wrong."

Giuliani's interview came only two days after The Washington Post opinion writer Jonathan Capehart wondered why Giuliani had remained silent since making similar criticisms of the project in a conservative radio talk show last month.

"Maybe Giuliani is too busy enjoying the summer in the Hamptons to jump back into the muddy puddle the 'mosque' controversy has become," Capehart wrote.

But Giuliani, who ran a failed presidential campaign in 2008 that relied largely on promoting his 9/11 leadership role, was never one to flee from the spotlight.

And perhaps spurred -- even upset -- by the Capehart remarks, Giuliani made it clear today that he supported New York Gov. David Paterson's proposal to move the mosque to a site farther away from ground zero.

Paterson told Larry King on CNN that "if people put their heads together, maybe we could find a site that's away from the site now but still serves the ... area. That would be a noble gesture to those who live in the area who suffered after the attack on this country, and at the same time would probably in many ways change a lot of people's minds about Islam, which is really a peaceful religion practiced by peace-loving people."

Giuliani's words put him in direct opposition to the views of New York City's present mayor, Michael Bloomberg, who has come out strongly in support of the project, saying cancellation of the project would be a "sad day for America."

President Barack Obama also came out in support of the mosque last week, but faced with strong Republican criticism, he reframed his remarks on Saturday to say he was not endorsing the project near ground zero but trying to "treat everybody equally" regardless of their religion.

"I was not commenting, and I will not comment, on the wisdom of making the decision to put a mosque there," he said.

According to a Gallup survey, 41 percent of Americans have no opinion of Obama's comments, but of those who do, opponents outnumber supporters of the project. The survey, published Wednesday, found two in three of those polled said they were paying a great deal (34 percent) or a fair amount (32 percent) of attention to the controversy surrounding the project.

Among those offering help with the issue is the leader of the Roman Catholic Church in New York, Archbishop Timothy M. Dolan.

In an impromptu news conference on Wednesday he said he was ready to help mediate between those who support the mosque and those who are opposed.

During his comments, he invoked the example of Pope John Paul II, who in 1993 ordered Catholic nuns to move from their convent at the former Auschwitz Nazi death camp after Jewish leaders protested.

The same reference to Pope John Paul's decision was made by Giuliani today during his NBC interview.

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Interesting, because I have been thinking about this

What Would George W. Bush Do About Ground Zero Mosque?

But amid all the overheated rhetoric, some may wonder what former President George W. Bush might say about all this.

For now, nothing.

A spokesman for the former president told AOL News that Bush would have no comment on the matter.

But days after the 9/11 attacks, Bush had much to say about the need for religious tolerance even after Islamic extremists carried out the worst foreign attack in history on U.S. soil.

"The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam," Bush said at the Islamic Center of Washington in a speech that set the tenor for when he later sent U.S. troops to fight on Muslim soil in Afghanistan and later Iraq. "That's not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace. These terrorists don't represent peace. They represent evil and war."

He went on to say, in words that Democrats who disagreed with Bush on nearly every issue now recall fondly, that despite raw emotions, millions of American Muslims "need to be treated with respect. In our anger and emotion, our fellow Americans must treat each other with respect."

American Muslims who protested the Bush administration's treatment of detainees at the prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, say they long for the former president to speak out against the rhetoric of his fellow Republicans.

"President Bush would have said more or less the same thing as President Obama, only President Bush wouldn't have come under attack from extremists for saying so," Ibrahim Hooper of the Council on American-Islamic Relations told AOL News. "Any leader has to take a position based on principle and not on a sense of mob rule."

Hooper accused elected officials like House Minority Leader John Boehner -- who called the proposed mosque "deeply troubling, as is the president's decision to endorse it" -- of trying to score "cheap political points based on hysteria and Islamophobia."

 

[Diemen]

Giuliani, who won praise for his leadership after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said the imam was a man who was "selling sensitivity," but that "you don't do it by creating this kind of vicious, sort of angry battle that's going on."

Exactly who is "creating this kind of vicious, sort of angry battle" here?

 

[Irvine511]

Exactly who is "creating this kind of vicious, sort of angry battle" here?

the people who are the real bigots -- the Muslims.

don't you know? like how our black president is the real racist, and people opposed to everything Palin are the real sexists.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Giuliani also had strong words for the imam who would lead the mosque, Feisal Abdul Rauf, saying that if he portrays himself as a healer "then you don't go forward with this project," but that if you are "a warrior, then you do."

WTF...by supporting this the guy's officially a warrior now? Seriously?

Let's take a look at the description of this imam:

The imam, who is seen as a controversial figure even among U.S. Muslims, has on occasion criticized Islam and has spent a lot of his career working closely with Christians and Jews to try to advance interfaith understanding.

Ooooh. Sounds truly terrifying, he does. Mmhm. Gotta be careful of those people who try and be all NICE about their interaction with other faiths, after all, they've obviously got some sort of ulterior motive.

Besides, isn't Giuliani the one where there was that fundraiser that had the whole $9.11 thing going on? Shove it, Rudy, you obnoxious twit. You have absolutely no moral ground to stand on here. None whatsoever. For crying out loud, freakin' Bush Jr. got the message after 9/11.

Angela

 

[Knuckle]

From today's New York Post (owned by NewsCorp, Rupert Murdoch/Fox)...

Imam's wife 'won't cave' on Ground Zero mosque, blames GOP - m.NYPOST.com

 

[anitram]

this issue is the biggest nonsense distraction of the year. it has NOTHING to do with ANYTHING, and it proves, again, that the GOP is more than willing to kick a Muslim in order to scare up a few votes (not from lower Manhattan, either).

I've spent the last 2+ months abroad so forgive me if I've missed something but has America managed to solve all of its big, important problems in the meantime so that this has become the pressing issue of the day?

I mean, it must be some kind of utopia down there if THIS is what occupies the minds and time of people like Giuliani, Palin, and the media in general.

 

[Diemen]

Daily Show had a fantastic bit on this yesterday.

Extremist Makeover - Homeland Edition - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/19/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

 

[nathan1977]

Daily Show had a fantastic bit on this yesterday.

Extremist Makeover - Homeland Edition - The Daily Show with Jon Stewart - 08/19/2010 - Video Clip | Comedy Central

Diemen beat me to it. Hilarious. Jon struck the right note.

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Haha, I saw that last night. Absolutely brilliant . Can we pass that message on to the politicians?

Angela

 

[nathan1977]

I mean, it must be some kind of utopia down there if THIS is what occupies the minds and time of people like Giuliani, Palin, and the media in general.

Haven't you heard? The Iraq war is over, so they have to find something new to focus on/complain about.

 

[LPU2]

I'm a liberal Democrat, but I understood the conservative view on the Iraq war. I understand their stance on immigration, taxes, the economy, healthcare. I disagree with most of them, but I see their point.

It's similar to the difference between Catholics and Protestants. We all want the same thing; we just have different ideas on the best way to get there.

But I absolutely cannot understand how a person with a basic understanding of our Constitution and, as Bono puts it, the IDEA of America, could possibly take the anti-mosque stance. Clearly, the conservative politicians and pundits know better. They're just stirring up the ignorant masses. That much is clear.

But why do SO MANY good people fall for it??!!!!!!!! I heard someone say the other day that it'll be OK to build a Mosque at Ground Zero when a church is built in Saudi Arabia. Really??? So Saudi Arabia is our standard for religious freedom and tolerance? I thought we were better than that. But maybe we're not.

American conservatives so often love to point out how great this country is. And it is! But every issue that comes up, from personal freedom issues to Habeas Corpus to torture to religious tolerance, it seems they want to dismantle our greatness piece by piece.