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Old 08-17-2010, 01:13 PM   #76
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when you're equating conquerors with peaceful American Muslims who have lived in this country for most of their lives, it most definitely is part of the problem.
Again, there is a certain historical precedent that we're dealing with, that carries certain (understandable) emotional triggers.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:14 PM   #77
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Good Lord, Nathan. You're usually up to far better arguments than that.
I know, but usually the protests are better.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:17 PM   #78
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I'm trying to remember if strippers flew into the buildings.

it is a sacred space and all.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:18 PM   #79
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70% of Americans are hateful, fearful, racist bigots?



when it comes to Muslins, yes.



believe me -- i know well what it's like to be part of a hated minority.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:18 PM   #80
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My point is that buildings are denied permits out of consideration for the common good all the time, and it's not unconstitutional to do so.

This really is not correct at all. You should look into land use law.

Properties have certain land use destinations. If a project meets those destinations a planning commission, can not deny that use based on bias.

They do not pick winners and losers. If land use allows an auto dealership, they can not say for the "common good" we will permit an American auto maker, but we will not permit a foreign auto maker.

There is some discretion when considering a 'variance' to the permitted use.
But if the discussion leads to choosing winners and losers, a that would be illegal and open to (successful) lawsuits.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #81
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when it comes to Muslins, yes.
Really?
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:20 PM   #82
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Really?

yessir.

you don't think there'd be a Guantanamo Bay if there were Christians in there, do you?
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:23 PM   #83
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But even within that there are sub-divisions -- for example, colleges, though educational institutions with a populace that is under-age, are held to a different standard than elementary schools. So there are different distinctions all the time.
You keep talking around the subject. All elementary schools are held to the same standard.

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Can you not see how Ground Zero might be held to a different level of scrutiny?
No, especially due to the fact that technically it's not even at Ground Zero but two blocks away and it's not even a Mosque.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:24 PM   #84
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This really is not correct at all. You should look into land use law.
Actually, in Newport RI (where I'm from) you're not allowed to build on the Colonial wharf unless you're going to build in a Colonial style. That, in addition to the rules prohibiting bars and strip clubs from being built near schools and churches, means that land use laws have their limits.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:27 PM   #85
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Again, there is a certain historical precedent that we're dealing with, that carries certain (understandable) emotional triggers.
What historical precedent?

Where is the precedent based on emotional triggers?

I'm sorry but you're definately on the wrong side of history with this one, and time will prove me correct. Like Irvine said, it's downright embarassing... and sad.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:30 PM   #86
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Actually, in Newport RI (where I'm from) you're not allowed to build on the Colonial wharf unless you're going to build in a Colonial style.
You're bombing left and right with this one...

These standards were set up before hand, not after the fact. We have zoning restrictions, i.e. heights, styles, uses, etc...

None of this applies to your line of logic.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:30 PM   #87
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and it's less that 70% of the American public are raving bigots and more that they're poorly informed, especially on the specifics of the issue as well as the circumstance surrounding 9-11.

polls are good for gut emotional reactions, but this issue hasn't been well explained at all by the press, who are hungry for some electoral red meat.

Obama actually came out and explained it perfectly, but all anyone's interested is whether or not it will help or hurt Democrats in November.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:31 PM   #88
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technically it's not even at Ground Zero but two blocks away and it's not even a Mosque.
If it weren't a Mosque, I doubt we'd be having a debate about this.
Ground Zero Mosque Debate Becomes a Campaign Issue - Political Hotsheet - CBS News

However, it's irrelevant to me whether it's a Mosque or not -- the federal government should not have the right to tell a religion or religious group where or what to build or where they can gather.

At the same time, it behooves all of us to understand the various historical and emotional factors that come into play with all of this. I don't like tarring people with the "ignorant bigot" brush. It's lazy.

And as Irvine pointed out, all of this carries a political weight that may overwhelm everything else. And I do wish that the President had just left it to NY to decide -- unfortunately, now it becomes a federal "issue" that the press will use to play football with throughout the fall, and will ultimately be a huge distraction.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:32 PM   #89
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Did you read what I wrote?

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Properties have certain land use destinations.
Where I live, Newport Beach CA, I have just spent 3 years on a commitee updating our municipal zoning code, land uses, entitlements and general plan.

Lots of land use attorneys, urban planners, civil engineers.
I was asked to sit-in as a non-voting member of the public because I formed a private property rights group that was sussessful in modifing the general plan in 2006.

That is all very boring, except that it did educate me on how these things work.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:38 PM   #90
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If it weren't a Mosque, I doubt we'd be having a debate about this.
Really? You don't think the fact that Muslim is attached to it in anyway would be enough? Looking at your arguments, I think you've proved otherwise.

It's actually a community center with a place to pray, it is not a Mosque.
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