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Old 08-17-2010, 12:14 PM   #61
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This really doesn't have to be an issue about freedom of religion, or a referendum on the Constitution.

I'm of two minds on the subject. On the one hand, I don't like the idea of the government telling religions where they can build or not build. It's a slippery slope that will only raise more problems than it solves. On the other hand, there is some legal precedent for depriving private property owners of building where they want because of the common good. You can't build a bar next to a school, for example, or a strip club near a church.

I'm also kind of amazed that Interference was talking about this at the end of May, but it's only become a political topic now. Nice one.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:26 PM   #62
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How is it not a freedom of religion issue? Not building a bar next to a school is a standard and it stands for all bars.

No one is saying you can't build a bar that serves green beer next to this school because their school colors are blue and it might offend them.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:28 PM   #63
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On the other hand, there is some legal precedent for depriving private property owners of building where they want because of the common good. You can't build a bar next to a school, for example, or a strip club near a church.
I don't see "the common good" clause fitting this scenario. And I see it as being a slippery slope when the common good moves from bars and strip clubs to places of worship and community.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:35 PM   #64
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How is it not a freedom of religion issue? Not building a bar next to a school is a standard and it stands for all bars.
My point is that buildings are denied permits out of consideration for the common good all the time, and it's not unconstitutional to do so.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:38 PM   #65
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I don't see "the common good" clause fitting this scenario.
Pearl apparently disagrees with you. I'm not going to tell her she's wrong.

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And I see it as being a slippery slope when the common good moves from bars and strip clubs to places of worship and community.
Again, I don't disagree. As a Christian who has spent time in the Middle East, I think it could be a remarkable statement to have a mosque at Ground Zero. At the same time, given the historical nature of Islamic buildings being erected at sites of conquest, I can see the other side of this.

Again, a bit of rationality could go a long way here.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:43 PM   #66
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Pearl apparently disagrees with you.
And I with Pearl. Ultimately I do believe it comes down to religious freedom. And I can see no "common good" reason that would prevent the building of an Islamic community center and mosque.

If we're going to talk about common good, we'd have to apply it equally to every building near ground zero. And quite frankly, there are a lot more potentially "insensitive" buildings and businesses down there than a place of worship:

Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons

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At the same time, given the historical nature of Islamic buildings being erected at sites of conquest, I can see the other side of this.

Again, a bit of rationality could go a long way here.
These 2 sentences seem to contradict each other.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:50 PM   #67
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My point is that buildings are denied permits out of consideration for the common good all the time, and it's not unconstitutional to do so.

But common good applies to all facilities of that type. All bars, all strip clubs, all liquor stores.

Are we going to apply denomination standards to how we discriminate against churches. No Catholic churches within a 100 foot radius of Elementary schools where boys attend? No Mormon churches within a 100 foot radius where young girls attend?

I mean there's a small section of Mormon's that prey on little girls and want them for their wives, so shouldn't we label and punish all Mormon churches?

It's for the common good.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:52 PM   #68
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And I with Pearl. Ultimately I do believe it comes down to religious freedom. And I can see no "common good" reason that would prevent the building of an Islamic community center and mosque.
And a lot of other people can. Shrug.

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If we're going to talk about common good, we'd have to apply it equally to every building near ground zero. And quite frankly, there are a lot more potentially "insensitive" buildings and businesses down there than a place of worship:

Mosque gets all the press, but area near Ground Zero full of bars, porn, liquor stores, salons
And when Ronald McDonald and the Hamburgler start flying into buildings, I'll agree.

Given the surroundings, I personally think referring to the area as "hallowed" misses the mark. At the same time, we can't ignore that Ground Zero is a site of tremendous personal, national, and historical significance, and I appreciate that people are trying to figure out the best way to recognize and honor what took place there.

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These 2 sentences seem to contradict each other.
Which is kind of part of the problem, isn't it?
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:55 PM   #69
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But common good applies to all facilities of that type. All bars, all strip clubs, all liquor stores.
But even within that there are sub-divisions -- for example, colleges, though educational institutions with a populace that is under-age, are held to a different standard than elementary schools. So there are different distinctions all the time. Can you not see how Ground Zero might be held to a different level of scrutiny?
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:58 PM   #70
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i can't believe this is an issue. it's embarrassing.

as ever, the Republicans are using hatred, fear, bigotry, and racism and opening their arms to the hateful, the fearful, the bigots, and the racists amongst us.

they want a clash of civilizations, they really, really do.

compared to Gingrich, Palin, et al, W Bush looks positively complex and nuanced.
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Old 08-17-2010, 12:59 PM   #71
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Can you not see how Ground Zero might be held to a different level of scrutiny?


should we remove the strip clubs in lower Manhattan as well?
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:07 PM   #72
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should we remove the strip clubs in lower Manhattan as well?
I'm trying to remember if strippers flew into the buildings.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:08 PM   #73
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And a lot of other people can. Shrug.
Yet none have actually articulated why.


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Which is kind of part of the problem, isn't it?
Yes, when you're equating conquerors with peaceful American Muslims who have lived in this country for most of their lives, it most definitely is part of the problem.
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Old 08-17-2010, 01:08 PM   #74
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as ever, the Republicans are using hatred, fear, bigotry, and racism and opening their arms to the hateful, the fearful, the bigots, and the racists amongst us.
70% of Americans are hateful, fearful, racist bigots?

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Old 08-17-2010, 01:09 PM   #75
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I'm trying to remember if strippers flew into the buildings.
Good Lord, Nathan. You're usually up to far better arguments than that.
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