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Old 08-16-2010, 03:44 PM   #31
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Here's a question that could change a person's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Jehoval Witnesses were the the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Kingdom Hall being built at that site 9 yrs later?


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Old 08-16-2010, 03:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Here's a question that could change a person's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Jehoval Witnesses were the the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Kingdom Hall being built at that site 9 yrs later?


Thank u,
<>

How would that change someone's perception on the issue? What are you trying to say, that Muslims are intentionally stirring the pot by building a mosque near the WTC and that other religions would not? How do you know for sure? Why doesn't that sound discriminatory to you?

Also, just because a few Jehovah's Witnesses or any one else commits an act in the name of whatever religion they ascribe to, DOES NOT MEAN THAT EVERYONE IS GUILTY BY ASSOCIATION.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:26 PM   #33
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So we know BoMac's stance w/o even addressing the question asked.
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Old 08-16-2010, 04:36 PM   #34
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So we know BoMac's stance w/o even addressing the question asked.
I know how a "debate" goes with you, so I won't even bother.

But, against my better judgment, I will say this: How would I be able to address the question asked when I do not know with 100% certainty what actions one person, much less an entire group of people will do? What are the chances that Jehovah's Witnesses would build a Kingdom Hall near the WTC? I don't know because I have no idea what they would do.

And why would I answer a question that's clearly discriminatory to begin with?
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Old 08-16-2010, 06:08 PM   #35
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Understand that we should unfairly treat innocent people because some nutjobs who claim the same religion did something bad? That we should single out one religion above others as not worthy of the same kinds of religious freedoms we're supposed to be fighting for? That we should, as the above posted article says, perpetuate the incredibly harmful perception that we're in a war against Muslims and not just those who actually committed crimes against us?

I've done some thinking since I last discussed this issue. On one hand, I do think the mosque should go up. After all, there were Muslims who were killed on 9/11. One of them was the father of the first child to be born after the attacks.

But on the other hand, I still feel uncomfortable, because I am wondering who is behind this mosque. Is it the Saudis? If so, then there's a chance that the mosque would be preaching hatred and terrorism because Saudi Arabia follows Wahhabi Islam, which promotes the aforementioned. There have been many articles saying Saudi Arabia is funding mosques all over the world that preach Wahhabism. So if the Saudis are behind this mosque, then I am against it because it won't be about religious tolerance; the mosque would be about the opposite.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:09 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Here's a question that could change a person's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Jehoval Witnesses were the the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Kingdom Hall being built at that site 9 yrs later?


Thank u,
<>
It wouldn't be any different. This post doesn't even make any sense. Your understanding of this issue needs a lot of help.
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Old 08-16-2010, 07:59 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by diamond View Post
Here's a question that could change a person's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Jehoval Witnesses were the the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Kingdom Hall being built at that site 9 yrs later?


Thank u,
<>
Let's rephrase this even further to see if this shifts anyone's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Mormons were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Mormon Temple being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 2:
If a bunch of radical, demented Protestants were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Protestant church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 3:
If a bunch of radical demented Catholics were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Catholic church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

The answer to these is most definitely not "not good, because Mormons/Protestants/Catholics aren't that insensitive." It's "just fine, because most Americans don't have such an irrational prejudice against the entirety of Mormons/Protestants/Catholics because of the actions of a decidedly fringe, minority element that they would try to paint the building of a community place of worship as a radical act."
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:07 PM   #38
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Seemingly Jon Stewart was saying, and produced video evidence on his show, that there is already a mosque that is as close to Ground Zero as the new mosque - and has been there for many years.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:14 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Let's rephrase this even further to see if this shifts anyone's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Mormons were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Mormon Temple being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 2:
If a bunch of radical, demented Protestants were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Protestant church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 3:
If a bunch of radical demented Catholics were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Catholic church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

The answer to these is most definitely not "not good, because Mormons/Protestants/Catholics aren't that insensitive." It's "just fine, because most Americans don't have such an irrational prejudice against the entirety of Mormons/Protestants/Catholics because of the actions of a decidedly fringe, minority element that they would try to paint the building of a community place of worship as a radical act."
Yes and there are problems between Catholic and Protestant communities in Northern Ireland, but mainstream politician or serious commentators generally don't suggest that a new Protestant church should not be built in a mainly Catholic area or vice versa (granted, 9/11 was on a different scale to acts of terrorism that occured in Northern Ireland).

Mike Bloomberg has quite rightly defended the mosque, or more accurately, defended the separation of Church and state that is an intrinsic part of living in a republic.

By contrast Obama has dithered and copped out, but really, given that he is a smart sharp lawyer that is a million miles away from being a statesman, I guess I'm not surprised.
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Old 08-16-2010, 08:48 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Let's rephrase this even further to see if this shifts anyone's paradigm:

If a bunch of radical, demented Mormons were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Mormon Temple being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 2:
If a bunch of radical, demented Protestants were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Protestant church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

Scenario 3:
If a bunch of radical demented Catholics were the terrorists that flew the planes into the towers that day, what would be the chances of a Catholic church being built a couple blocks away from the site 9 years later?

The answer to these is most definitely not "not good, because Mormons/Protestants/Catholics aren't that insensitive." It's "just fine, because most Americans don't have such an irrational prejudice against the entirety of Mormons/Protestants/Catholics because of the actions of a decidedly fringe, minority element that they would try to paint the building of a community place of worship as a radical act."
You beat me to it, Diemen.

Interesting that he chose the Jehovahs Witnesses, another group that people tend to have a negative feeling about. Why not the Mormons? They also tend to be misunderstood by non-Mormons. Or maybe that would be striking too close to home?
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Old 08-16-2010, 09:43 PM   #41
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This mosque deserves the same treatment as the other faith-based constructions and should be permitted.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:04 PM   #42
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This mosque deserves the same treatment as the other faith-based constructions and should be permitted.
Yes. But recently I was pondering about certain other faith-based contructions.

The skyscrapers in Manhattan, or for that matter, anywhere else, are largely faith-based constructions - in effect, monuments to a system which came within approximately 180 minutes of systemic meltdown in September 2008.

The One Jaw Dropping Video that Every Fool Must See

Marx said religion was the opium of the masses, now we have the new opium of credit.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:27 PM   #43
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The context of the quote may reinforce the analogy
Quote:
Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, and the soul of soulless conditions. It is the opium of the people. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is the demand for their real happiness. To call on them to give up their illusions about their condition is to call on them to give up a condition that requires illusions. The criticism of religion is, therefore, in embryo, the criticism of that vale of tears of which religion is the halo.
This whole critique may extend to consumerism.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:38 PM   #44
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Seemingly Jon Stewart was saying, and produced video evidence on his show, that there is already a mosque that is as close to Ground Zero as the new mosque - and has been there for many years.
Yes, I saw that too. I believe that mosque is 4 blocks away (rather than the 2 blocks for the proposed one). But of course it's a lot harder for people to argue for tearing down an existing mosque.
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Old 08-16-2010, 10:50 PM   #45
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Ok, so in the space that religion used to occupy, we now have booze, drugs, pop music, gambling, the Premier League and - most importantly - shopping centres - and it surely cannot be coincidence that the most irreligious societies on earth are largely also the most globalist (with the possible exception of the US, but really religion there is largely just another form of consumerism).

It is not a perfect system but it seems to work up to a point, barring enviromental catastrophe - possibly, Huxley was a better predictor even than Marx.
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