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Old 09-16-2010, 08:38 PM   #286
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I think my post was kind of misinterpretted.

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Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.
I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.

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Shall I assume then that every Catholic supports child molestation? I mean, surely you would think more Catholics would be speaking out against the priest scandal, right, but since they aren't doing so in loud, vocal terms, well... Or hey, I could stereotype all conservatives based on the Palins and Becks of the world, too, they're not speaking up enough against those people's actions and words, so naturally they must agree with them.
A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.

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No. You do not judge an entire group based on the actions of some. The nutcases always make the news. If somebody watching can't differentiate between those idiots burning American symbols and the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims, then that's their problem to deal with, not mine or anyone else's.
That was the point I was trying to make.

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You kinda missed my point, which is you just seem very unaware that there are at least two sides to the story.

What is your exposure to Middle-Eastern Muslims?
Oh I know, I was just making the point that most people don't hear the other side of the story. And as for exposure to the Middle East, I have none, but around this time next year I will have a hell of a lot more.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:13 PM   #287
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this.

I hadn't heard anything about this? I had always understood Europe to be pretty secular. Do you have some examples?
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:26 PM   #288
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.



A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.
Espousing stereotypes of any kind, and whether you think of it first or not when discussing a group of people, is a slippery slope.

As someone with Italian heritage, I cannot tell you how many people assume I'm mobbed up, or at the very least am connected in some way to the Mafia. I'm very serious. I kid you not, and I have heard it directly from people's mouths.

And it is infuriating. So I can only imagine how innocent Muslims feel about being lumped in with the tiny minority who use their religion to inflict harm on others.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:57 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

Just ask Aisha Duhulowa.
I don't know how much Sharia law is being integrated, but I would like to do some more research.

But I was talking to a Muslim friend of mine over the weekend, he's what many would consider a "liberal" Muslim, like I would be considered a "liberal" Christian. And like myself he finds no contradictions in his stances.

He summed it up like this: Let's forget about the whole concept of separation of church and state for a second. If someone told you they wanted more Biblical law introduced in your country there would be question as to what that meant. Some would think Leviticus, some would think eye for an eye, some would think more along the lines of forgiveness. Well these same debates apply to our religion, so if these debates apply within our religion it's not a shock to think that an outsider would be confused. As an outsider with only access to single lines taken here and there I would think the Bible condoned stoning a woman who commited adultery, but not a man.

"Sharia" really only stands for justice, but what equals "justice" is up to interpretation; in the Muslim religion, the Jewish religion, the Christian religion and the secular world.

He often doesn't like to talk religion, but I found the discussion very eye opening and honestly wish I could have recorded it because I think the world needs to hear it, he just put it in a way that isn't being expressed enough out there.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:05 AM   #290
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I am reposting my what I posted before anding the rest of my expereince AND then commenting on some of the other posts.

So here's another New York Ctiy'er weighing in.
First here was my 9-11 experience ( some of you might have read my annual or so post on this)

I don't listen/watch TV in the morning UNLESS I know in advance about something extraordinarily Wonderful OR Terrible to take a peek. It's too distracting for me! I DO however usually run around with a walkman or radio with earbuds in!

On Sept 11, 2001- I had the walkman with me, earbuds in BUT NOT Turned on!

I got up at 10AM ad left the house at around 10:28A or so, rushing down the street. I see a beautiful blue sky and happy (not rain type) sumer cloud ahead of me in the distance, peeking over local buildings.

Suddenly I switch my AM news station and 3 newspeople are talking about firefighters covered in ash, and it looks like a movie but it ISN'T. They in the midst of their intensity DO NOT IDENTIFY What or Where this is happening! I get a vision of a particular type of massive Queens apt Complex.

I am going at right angles to my home street. AS I cross the street to go towards the subway station the broadcasters turn silent .I hit he block, and am now in the same direction I was as I left my Apt building (this is very important) .

and know that in NYC after a bunch of years after the towers wre completed that the phrases "The Towers" The Twin Towers" came to mean only one place: The WTC.

One man suddenly comes back on after ?20 plus seconds in radio silence (real "Dead Air" as it is called ) and says "The Towers are GONE".

I stop dead in my tracks. Then I spin around 90 degrees facing the the other side of the street, holding my radio which to me on an emotional level has JUST METAMORPHASIZED into a Squarking Monster spewing UNBELEIVABLE Verbal Poison at me! ( Amazing i didn't drop it)

I start to only semi-consciously put 2 +2+ 2 together. I terribly begin to turn back around to the direction i was heading in. Now I AM again facing Lower Manhattan as I was when I first left the house.The light-bulb then fully goes on over my head!

I squint at that "happy summer cloud" and realized it DOESN'T HAVE the Correct Colors and Shadows for THIS time of day! It is lightish yellow-beige-gray. AND it looks more dense, more rough than a normal cloud should be!

It finally all gets put togther in one terrifying micro-second that I AM looking at the cloud of death and destruction of The Towers. I do not even know YET that it was a terrorist attck. All I know is my beautiful Towers have been destroyed, and obviously there were probably many deaths involved!

I run back home screaming....along the way finding out about the 2 planes and the Pentigon attack!

ANd so now I joined the agony of the day & days ahead here in my NYC.
-------------------------------------------------------
NOW continuing my 9-11 experiecnes

The cloud eventually rose high enough and was blown over my (then) Brooklyn neighborhood (among some others) and i stayed inside. After the cloud had dissapted I spent time in my next door neigborhood finding out where to bring stuff tohelp the resuce teams, praying in churhes, and writing stuff and banners supplied outside some places and churhes.

I don't think i was able to go back into Manahttan right away the subways across the Manahttan Bridge, and maybe the Bronx and Queens too, were cut off. AND I spent 4 days before i could get to a internet cafe/ library that worked becuase the Net Lines were cut over in Lower Manhattan and THAT efected the area in Brooklynn iwas in...to contact all my On-line friends, and aquaintices - who were waiting to find out what happened to me! SOme knrw I had worked in the general area.

I also spents hours for days at the biggest (and getting bigger and bigger) of the Impromtu Memorials (EVERYWHERE around The 5 Burroughs of NYC) - which was at Union Square, just across(above) the dividing line where people could not go (except for people who lived there or who were helping) below 14th street!

When I was able to start going back to Lower Manhattan... well, uuuugh... the Stench of Death & Destruction coming out of The Pit and area of the WTC .... you could smell the burnt metal, you could smell the brunt plastic AND THAT WAS BAD Enough BUT...you could also smell because it just didn't quite smell likeONLY metal and plastic.... something ELSE- the burnt, pulverized bits of human flesh.
And as soon as the subway car opened it's doors Underground there it was for x weeks.

finally for myself and my circle of family and friends-- we were VERY BLESSED....
one friend who would have been dead period- got fired from the ?104th floor of the North Tower 2 weeks earlier! Another had stoppeed to pick up his glasses outside of the WTC complex instead of going in.
The less probable but still possible were my mom's favorite cousin whom we loved too, had had serious dealings realated to The Towers for months.

She was more than less done, but it's possible she could have been called back in and on THAT day...which had she been injured or killed....might have sent my mom into some kind of physcially debilitating shock reaction or death. Which would torn our lives apart.

Over the years Thankfully as I 've learned about grief process /the pain has lessened in frequency and intenstity - normally. But there are times it can get pretty intense for brief periods especially around 9-11.

Oh, and I worked there back in the early 80'S for a year on the 73rd floor big north-east corner office. The view was Incredidible! I came to love the towers because their simplicity actually reflected the colors and also images in the windows of the sky and clouds . I miss them.

IN fact I think some part of my mind protected me,, b/c it was ONLY a few years ago ( vs all the way back ) - that I was looking at the South Tower's explosion from the plane hit-- and realized that that nice corner office i just wrote about and whom moved out f the Tower decdes back..... well THAT was in the middle section OF that explosion! Thank the powers I did NOT have a PTSD issue when i realized that!

So to all those right wing people like Rush, Savage, Beck, Palin, etc. :
I WILL NEVER, EVER forget what happnened to my city , MY New Yorkers, and the other visitors etc who died, were injuried /or emoionally traumatized. EVER!!! GOT IT ??!!

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Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
While I find a lot of that article to be extremely biased and sensationalized, I can genuinely understand being concerned about where the funding is coming from. However, (and I'm not saying you're a part of this, Pearl), I find it highly hypocritical that people get all up in arms about funding for a Muslim community center but don't even bat an eye at funding for other organizations, like Citibank and even the right's beloved Fox News, whose second largest shareholder is Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (a family friend of the Bush family, btw), the very same man who Fox is trying to paint as the leader of a nefarious organization with ties to terrorism, all while conveniently omitting his name or picture.
heh... yeah really, that took the cake when i heard THAT a Few days ago!

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Originally Posted by A stor View Post
That was a hate crime. Would it even be questioned if it was done to any other minority?

I was planing a trip to NYC. I have since, changed my mind. The Big Apple, the city that has always boasted to the rest of us. We are so metropolitian and melting pot of the world. Has given me, a bad taste in my mouth.

Folks had no problem, boycotting Arizona. How would New York, like the same?
1> abolute hate crime for sure. I was yelling when i heard abou that!

2> while you decided boycotting was not so much the way to go.....
...I hope you are re-reconsidering visiting my city!
One of the most beautiful places (if you are not an aetheist who refuses to set foot in whatever houses opf worship even to admire the architecture< i don't know your thots on that>) is St John The Divine's Gothic Cathedral of the Protestant Church. AMAZING!

ANd at the special Holidays Masses and certain other special Masses they include a Rabbi, an Iman, Native Amercians and African Indigenous Religious Holy Poeple and Dancers as well. Aalso a very cool Folk-Italian group who honor the Black Madonna, I beleive.

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
My NYC trip is booked for October. I'll be staying with friends only a few blocks up the street from the madness actually.
Welcome to my city, AE!
There is a very beautiful place you will ALSO be not far from...TheWorld Financial Center and its parks above them, the wonderful North Cove and Plaza along with The Palm Court inside and the Glass structure above the court ( that miraculously thouh some of it was perforated during the attrocity...the main window entracnce that faced westward towards NJ did not get damaged! it took a year or more to fix it up) and the Esplanade that goes South of the WFC, and leads to more parks southward is a treasured place by most NYC'rs and visitors love it too!
I highly reccomend it! I go there alot !

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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I think some so badly want this to be a holy war.
i said so in the earlier post buy yeah
there are some people on both sides who would try to instigate one. Life forbid-- it starts to get to the nuclear weapons stage!

and you lost someone? I anm so sorry.

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Originally Posted by kramwest1 View Post
Military Religious Freedom Foundation | The Constitutional Conscience of the United States Military

The nonprofit MRFF is raising money to buy a Qur'an to replace each one that is burned at the Dove World Outreach Center this weekend. The Qur'an books will be donated to the Afghan National Army as a gesture of goodwill to counter this ridiculous protest.

I certainly believe they have a right to burn whatever they want, just as I believe that the Islamic community center can be built near the World Trade Center site. I just hope the worldwide media will show that the U.S. is a diverse and mostly tolerant place. It probably won't though.
that is a wonderful thing to know! I hadn't heard about that and I listen to real liberal talk radio. i could have missed it being mentioned, tho!

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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Yeah it does, but that's the Old Testament. The New Testament is different from that.

But then again, that's a whole other topic. Not that I want to get off of it, I just don't want to derail the thread.

And besides, what does one have to do with the other?
Pearl... Hello - my fellow NYC'r
What we do is have to fight those fears that would have us scapegoat where there shoiuldn't be any. And I'm sure someone will be keeping an eye onthe place.
ANd besides and BVS has said it is a Cultural Center first. It's to show the moderate side of Islam and provide some nice services for the general Lower Manahttan Comunity.

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Originally Posted by BoMac View Post
Well, I suspect that it has less to do with the actual religion and more with the dominant culture present in some countries that precludes people from accepting criticism. Note that throughout this whole burning the Qu'ran episode, Muslims in places like the U.S. Canada, France, the U.K. and elsewhere didn't start protesting violently.
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Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
True, but my guess is because Muslims living in the West are in countries where criticism of any religion is OK, and they've grown up in such a place, so they're probably used to criticism of Islam.

Other countries like Afghanistan have had theocracy and Islam dominating their culture for so many centuries, so perhaps that influenced their violent protests.
both your statements make sense to me.

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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.



This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm.
That's why it's hard for some people to understand.
it IS true sdome do want to harm us. but it's some, not a majority. Someties the US gets scapegoated b/c of the individual countries goverments to divert peoiple who have various problems with their governement.

I consider myself VERY LUCKY that after ( good ghads) reading the Illusrtrated Comics version of The Crusades when i was ? 10 or so......and for some other resons of things I had heard about other situaions I

1> rejected Religious Fundamentalists of ALL religions

2> over years got exposed to varous postives aspects of Islam.
The Sufi's - the Mystical WIng of Islam, beautiful deviotional poems, peaceful etc The beauty of Islamic Archtiecture and Design I found in one of our big Museums.

Muslims I met at various points in my later life.....good, helpul people. That's how I learned more about Ramadan and EId al Ftir ?<sp> the breaking of the 30 day day fast and the days of giving money and goods away to needy people and lots of Arab Muslim shopkeepers where i was living at the time.

SO I had postive experiences with Muslims that countered like 99% of possilbe fears. Yeah there's that 1% that sometimes about this and that.....but i counter it and that's been that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.

Angela
thank you!

oh and after all that in case it's not obvious Yes I do support the Islamic Community Cetner with the prayer room right were it has originally been proposed.

wow what loooooooooooooooong post! LOL

i hope it's somewhat insightful to hear another NYC'rs expereicnes. Thanks !
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:49 AM   #291
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I've got no problem with hearing from another New Yorker's perspective. Excellent post, I could not agree with you more. Thanks for sharing your story regarding 9/11, too-so glad that you weren't among the hurt that day and that most of the people you know managed to escape certain injury and death. Way to stick it to the people who keep exploiting the tragedy. No duh you're not going to forget. I feel really bad for victims of that day, I truly do. The politicians and media who keep using this for their own gain should be ashamed of themselves.

I was fortunate enough to go to New York City when the towers were still there. I can look at the pictures and be reminded of a more pleasant, peaceful time. It's a very surreal image to look at, though, it really is. I'd love to return to that city someday, either for a visit or, should I ever magically have the sort of financial comfort where I could do so, to live there, 'cause I greatly enjoyed my time there. It's a lovely place, so much to do and see.

BVS, your friend makes a fantastic point, that's very well put. And that's the thing that kills me about this-we get so up in arms at the thought of somebody possibly introducing Islamic beliefs into our culture and presume that means they want us all to convert to Islam, regardless of whether that's actually true or not. But then a lot of those same people turn around and see nothing wrong with trying to convert everyone to Christianity, trying to put Christian beliefs into our government and our schools and so on. "Christian nation, founded by religious people, God gave us the Constitution, yada, yada, yada". Very confusing. And besides that, even if this was intended to push Islamic ideals, does anyone honestly think the majority of Americans would suddenly start turning to that belief system? I'm guessing no.

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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.
I'm sorry if that's the case for you. It sucks that those people are held up in the media as examples of Islam, that desperately needs to stop.

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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.
Yes, but it doesn't seem it's to the extent that it is with Islam right now (well, maybe the attacks on conservative mindsets come close, as there have been violent outbursts towards a few people in that group, too). There's no mass rallies trying to burn Bibles or vandalize Catholic churches. If a Catholic church were to be built near a school, would we see the kind of protest for that that we are for this center near Ground Zero?

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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
That was the point I was trying to make.
My apologies if I misunderstood you, then, as it seems I have . I'm glad we're in agreement on this fact .

Angela
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:12 AM   #292
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Moonlit Angel

thank you for your kind repsonse.....

i had the most Wonderful photographs that accidenly got desposed of ( I DID NOT know they were in a particular box) that I took over about 6 months time out of the north and east windows of that South Tower Office!
I was docmenting the weather changes, the changes of light during the day and the changing seasons.

It was like being on a little mountain up there. I had been on moutians too, in the Rockies, NYS, VT, NH and Mesas in the High Desert of Arizona! On more windyish days you could SEE the clouds' shadows moving across the lower built sections of Manhattan The Village and parts of Chelsea!!

I never despite my photography passion ...took pics of the outside of the towers looking up! STOOOPID!
I do have vivid memories augmented by other's photography!

OH it IS surreal at times to look at photos of the towers

There are still times when I "expect" when I'm down in that area esp on a goregeous day.... that that section of the sky will "peel away" and the Towers will be re-revealed in their glory again! oh, well........

So, yes, it remains a surreal feeling at times!

I hope you'll get a chance to visit again. I'm glad you enjoyed your time here!
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:25 AM   #293
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Originally Posted by dazzledbylight View Post
Moonlit Angel

thank you for your kind repsonse.....

i had the most Wonderful photographs that accidenly got desposed of ( I DID NOT know they were in a particular box) that I took over about 6 months time out of the north and east windows of that South Tower Office!
I was docmenting the weather changes, the changes of light during the day and the changing seasons.

It was like being on a little mountain up there. I had been on moutians too, in the Rockies, NYS, VT, NH and Mesas in the High Desert of Arizona! On more windyish days you could SEE the clouds' shadows moving across the lower built sections of Manhattan The Village and parts of Chelsea!!
You're welcome, and that sounds awesome. It's a shame about that box of photographs, those sound like they would've been lovely to see. I'm sorry they disappeared on you .

I know what the image of seeing clouds move along mountains looks like, having lived in the Rockies for a time. It's indeed a gorgeous, amazing sight. Didn't get lucky enough to see that in New York City when I was out there, but we did get to see a good view of the city from one of the higher floors of the Empire State Building, as evening fell. It was pretty cool.

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Originally Posted by dazzledbylight View Post
I never despite my photography passion ...took pics of the outside of the towers looking up! STOOOPID!
I do have vivid memories augmented by other's photography!
Good, at least there's that. You just always probably thought, "Well, maybe next time", you don't realize... But as long as the memory remains in some form, that's worth holding on to.

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Originally Posted by dazzledbylight View Post
OH it IS surreal at times to look at photos of the towers

There are still times when I "expect" when I'm down in that area esp on a goregeous day.... that that section of the sky will "peel away" and the Towers will be re-revealed in their glory again! oh, well........

So, yes, it remains a surreal feeling at times!
I imagine so. It's not surprising to hear you keep expecting one day to see them again, as if the last 9 years were nothing but a really, really bad dream. If only they had been .

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Originally Posted by dazzledbylight View Post
I hope you'll get a chance to visit again. I'm glad you enjoyed your time here!
I did . It was brief, but fun. I'll certainly try and work on that. If I ever do get lucky enough to go, I'd love to meet up with any of you who live in that area .

Angela
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:13 PM   #294
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I hadn't heard anything about this? I had always understood Europe to be pretty secular. Do you have some examples?
The introduction of Sharia law into both European and UK laws is well-documented and easily researchable -- there was a huge to-do in the UK when it started happening in 2007-2008. An archbishop in the UK stirred up controversy when he called it "inevitable" in 2007, but nine months later it was reality.

The issue isn't whether or not Sharia law should be recognized as a matter of principle -- there are Jewish courts that function in a similar capacity. The issue is whether those aspects of Sharia law, particularly in regards to family and domestic laws (wife-beating, divorce, etc), that are in contradiction with established UK law should become the law of the land. Because encoded in Sharia law is the fact that no other laws can take precedence -- which is an understandable issue for contention.
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Old 09-17-2010, 01:47 PM   #295
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The introduction of Sharia law into both European and UK laws is well-documented and easily researchable -- there was a huge to-do in the UK when it started happening in 2007-2008. An archbishop in the UK stirred up controversy when he called it "inevitable" in 2007, but nine months later it was reality.

The issue isn't whether or not Sharia law should be recognized as a matter of principle -- there are Jewish courts that function in a similar capacity. The issue is whether those aspects of Sharia law, particularly in regards to family and domestic laws (wife-beating, divorce, etc), that are in contradiction with established UK law should become the law of the land. Because encoded in Sharia law is the fact that no other laws can take precedence -- which is an understandable issue for contention.
Not to be snarky or anything--you are, after all, one of my favorite posters so please don't take offense. But it seems to be the onus is on you to prove your statement rather than on me to go out and find evidence to contradict it. If I understand you correctly you're saying that European nations have allowed Sharia "courts" if you will to exist parallel to the secular courts? In other words religious matters can be resolved within the religion? Or are you saying that the laws that affect all citizens of the country are now informed by Sharia principles/beliefs. And what has been the result when Sharia and UK law have been in contradiction?

As a Christian, don't you believe that God's law supersedes any law of the land that contradicts it? I'm sure you're familiar with the passage, "We ought to obey God rather than man." (And just so A_Wanderer doesn't fall out with a heart attack from disgust at such a concept, isn't it really true that even the non-religious person believes that there may be times when the law of their conscience supersedes the law of the land?). Isn't the real issue specific Sharia laws--or more accurately their interpretation--rather than the general principle of a religous law superseding the law of the land in the minds of believers.
Remember there are more than a few Christians that interpret New Testament Scriptures in a way that can be viewed as sexist and demeaning to woemn.

Finally, I don't know about the UK but at least some other European countries don't seem to be exactly primed to embrace Islam. Isn't it France that just banned wearing the head scarf for women?
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Old 09-17-2010, 02:38 PM   #296
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Cartoonist Molly Norris in hiding after 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day' picture | Mail Online


Am I supposed to feel bad for her?
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:49 PM   #297
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.
The message is still clear: no equal rights for Muslims, ALL Muslims hate the West and ALL Muslims want the Shari'a as the Western system of justice, although it is slightly hidden by the kind words for the victims of 9/11. He throws oil on the fire of conservative xenophobes.

The speech is done by the same man who compares the Qur'an with Mein Kampf and calls the Islam fascist.
His one of his intentions to come to New York was to join the Qur'an burnings.

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What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?
Read very well.
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:49 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
Y

I know what the image of seeing clouds move along mountains looks like, having lived in the Rockies for a time. It's indeed a gorgeous, amazing sight. Didn't get lucky enough to see that in New York City when I was out there, but we did get to see a good view of the city from one of the higher floors of the Empire State Building, as evening fell. It was pretty cool.



Good, at least there's that. You just always probably thought, "Well, maybe next time", you don't realize... But as long as the memory remains in some form, that's worth holding on to.


I did . It was brief, but fun. I'll certainly try and work on that. If I ever do get lucky enough to go, I'd love to meet up with any of you who live in that area .

Angela
ah glsd you got up into the Empire state building... it's an amzing view.

AH! The Rockies!

my cousin took me up into the Rockies ( out from Denver) on a motorcycle! We reachedEcho lake about 10, 000 FT.


AND we stopped at Red Rocks ! ( 2 years to early!)

if we are still in touch on this site or however I am happy to meet up withmy Interland friends and aquaintences and show them Mah Homwtown
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Old 09-17-2010, 05:57 PM   #299
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Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.
I think you misunderstood something there. The Archbishop of Canterbury made comments suggesting such a thing, but no country in Europe has or is going to integrate Sharia law into domestic law, least any laws that'd go against human rights, equality etc.


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The message is still clear: no equal rights for Muslims, ALL Muslims hate the West and ALL Muslims want the Shari'a as the Western system of justice, although it is slightly hidden by the kind words for the victims of 9/11. He throws oil on the fire of conservative xenophobes.

The speech is done by the same man who compares the Qur'an with Mein Kampf and calls the Islam fascist.
His one of his intentions to come to New York was to join the Qur'an burnings.

As a European he knows very well what he can say and how he can say it without getting into legal trouble easily. It's one of the side-effects of certain laws regarding speech, which have taught those on the very far right how to guise their hatred in this "silky" speech.
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Old 09-17-2010, 06:10 PM   #300
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Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
As a European he knows very well what he can say and how he can say it without getting into legal trouble easily. It's one of the side-effects of certain laws regarding speech, which have taught those on the very far right how to guise their hatred in this "silky" speech.
True. You can't win people over with direct hate speech like swearing, racist comments etc. Politicians like Wilders are too smart. They want people to say things like:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nathan1977 View Post
The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.
(The steady integration of Sharia in European laws? Man, you just got so Pwned!)
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