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Old 09-15-2010, 02:15 PM   #271
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I don't get why that is so hard for people to understand. It should be so simple.
Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.



This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand.
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Old 09-15-2010, 03:01 PM   #272
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand.
Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:17 PM   #273
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Hate speech covered with a layer of silk. I paid tax for his trip!

YouTube - Speech Geert Wilders Ground Zero New York City 11th September 2010

"Dear friends, May I ask you to be silent for ten seconds? Just be silent and listen. Ten seconds. And listen… What we hear are the sounds of life in the greatest city on earth.

No place in the world, no place in human history, is as richly varied and vibrant and dynamic as New York City. You hear the cars, you hear the people, you hear them rushing to their various destinations, you hear the sounds of business and of pleasure, you hear the cheers, you hear the cries, the buzzing sounds of human activity. And that is how it should be.

Always. Now close your eyes – I know it’s a beautiful day, but close your eyes. I have been told that this day nine years ago was just such a beautiful day -- and remember, or try to remember, or try to imagine the sounds which were heard here on this spot under this same blue sky exactly nine years ago. The sound of shock, the sound of destruction, the sound of panic, the sound of pain, the sound of terror.

Did New York deserve this? Did America deserve this? Did the West deserve this? What, my friends, would you say to people who argue that New York, that America, that the West had itself to blame for those horrible sounds?

There are people in this city who argue this. And they are angry because we are gathered here today to commemorate, to make a stand, to draw the line. My friends, I have come from the other side of the Atlantic to share your grief for those who died here nine years ago. I have not forgotten how I felt that day.

The scenes are imprinted on my soul, as they are on yours.

But our hearts were not broken in the same way as the hearts of the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives here. Many relatives of the victims are here in our midst today.

I wish to take this opportunity to express my deepest and most heartfelt condolences to them and to all of the people of New York and America. Humbly, I stand here before you as a Dutchman and a European.

I, too, however, cannot forget. How can anyone forget?

Let me remind you of the words from Darryl Worley’s 9/11 song. Have you forgotten how it felt that day?

To see your homeland under fire And her people blown away Have you forgotten when those towers fell?

We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell Worley’s response is our response: No, we will NEVER forget. We are here today because we have not forgotten all the loved ones that were lost and those left to carry on.

And neither has the world. When the forces of Jihad attacked New York, they attacked the world. Among those lost were people from 55 nations, people of every religion and every persuasion. No place on earth had a more multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and multi-lingual workforce than New York’s proud towers.

That is exactly why they were targeted. They constituted an insult to those who hold that there can be no peaceful cooperation among people and nations without submission to Sharia; to those who wish to impose the legal system of Islam on the rest of us.

But New York and Sharia are incompatible. New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York’s Mayor recently said that New York is “rooted in Dutch tolerance.”

Those are true words. New York is not intolerant. How can it be? New York is open to the world. Suppose New York were intolerant. Suppose it only allowed people of one persuasion within its walls.

Then it would be like Mecca, a city without freedom. Whatever your religion, persuasion or gender is, in New York you will find a home.

In Mecca, if your religion isn’t Islam, you are not welcome. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf claims the right to build a mosque, a house of Sharia here – on this hallowed ground.

But, friends, I have not forgotten and neither have you.

That is why we are here today. To draw the line.

Here, on this sacred spot. We are here in the spirit of America’s founding fathers. We are here in the spirit of freedom. We are here in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln, the President who freed the slaves. President Lincoln said: “Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.”

These words are the key to our survival. The tolerance that is crucial to our freedom requires a line of defense. Mayor Bloomberg uses tolerance as an argument to allow Imam Rauf and his sponsors to build their so-called Cordoba Mosque.

Mayor Bloomberg forgets, however, that openness cannot be open-ended. A tolerant society is not a suicidal society.

It must defend itself against the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance. It cannot tolerate the intolerant – and survive.

This means that we must not give a free hand to those who want to subjugate us. An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building this mosque.

So is an overwhelming majority everywhere in the non-Islamic world.

Because we all realize what is at stake here. We know what this so-called Cordoba mosque really means. Imam Rauf maintains that American secular law and Sharia law are based on the same principles.

He refuses to condemn terrorists because he says terrorism is “a very complex question”. He says America is “an accessory to the crime that happened on 9/11.”

“In fact,” he literally said, “in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

He also says that “terrorism will only end when the West acknowledges the harm it has done to Muslims.”

That is why this man should not play the game he has in mind here in Manhattan. His “Blame the West, Blame America”-message is an insult. Americans – and by extension, all of us whose civilization was also attacked on 9/11/2001 – are not to blame for what happened here nine years ago today. Osama bin Laden is not made in the USA.

The West never “harmed” Islam before it harmed us.

Most Americans do not want this so-called Cordoba Mosque to be built here. They understand that it is both a provocation and a humiliation. They understand the triumphant narrative of a mosque named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba which was constructed where a Christian cathedral stood before the land was conquered by Islam.

An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building an Islamic cultural center close to Ground Zero. There is no lack of mosques in New York. There are dozens of buildings in which Muslims can pray. It isn’t about a lack of space for prayers.

It’s about the symbolic meaning. We who have come to speak today, object to this mosque project because its promoter and his wealthy sponsors have never suggested building a center to promote tolerance and interfaith understanding where it is really needed: In Mecca – a town where non-Muslims are not even allowed to enter, let alone build churches, synagogues, temples or community centers.

Ordinary Americans object to the mosque project because currently no fewer than ten major multi-million dollar mosque projects are being planned in the United States as well as dozens in Europe, while not a single church is allowed in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, while Jews are not even allowed to move their lips in prayer on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, while the oldest Christians in the world, the Copts, are not free to renovate their churches, let alone to build one in Egypt.

My friends, that is why we are here today. What happens in New York must be seen in the perspective of the world.

The events nine years ago made an enormous impact everywhere. Most people shared your pain, but, unfortunately, some did not.

Nine years ago, when the news of the terrible atrocity in New York reached Europe, Muslim youths danced in the streets. In a poll, two thirds of the Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands expressed partial or full understanding for the 9/11 terrorists.

If a mosque were built here on Ground Zero such people would feel triumphant. But we, we will not betray those who died on 9/11.

For their sakes we cannot tolerate a mosque on or near Ground Zero. For their sakes loud and clear we say: No mosque here! For their sakes, we must draw the line. So that New York, rooted in Dutch tolerance, will never become New Mecca.

But, let us also express our gratitude for the heroes of 9/11, those who went down in that Pennsylvania field, those who were standing freedom’s watch at the Pentagon, and those who were here in New York nine years ago to risk and lose their lives for the victims.

Friends, in honor of these victims, these heroes and their families, I believe that the words of Ronald Reagan, spoken in Normandy on the 40 th anniversary of D-Day, resonate with new purpose on this hallowed spot.

President Reagan said: “We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free.” And, we, too, will always remember the victims of 9/11 and their loved ones who were left behind; We, too, will always be proud of the heroes; We will always defend liberty, democracy and human dignity; In the name of freedom: No mosque here!"

(Source: Weblog Geertwilders - NYC speech Geert Wilders )
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Old 09-15-2010, 04:31 PM   #274
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I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:20 PM   #275
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...
Well Said, Pastor Jones had his fifteen minutes of fame and then some. Most Americans opposed what he planed to do, religuous or not. Didn't see them get the same coverage. Guess the nutjobs make for a better news story.
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Old 09-15-2010, 06:28 PM   #276
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I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.


the silk layer fooled you?


(I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him)
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Old 09-15-2010, 07:31 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.


This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand..

They don't speak up? Are you sure?

Quote:
CAIR-LA: Media coverage of Islam unbalanced

Advocacy group says normal, peaceful Muslims are not in news stories, only the violent extremists.
By Mona Shadia, mona.shadia@latimes.com

8:26 PM PDT, September 14, 2010


ANAHEIM — The Greater Los Angeles Area chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) held a media breakfast at its offices Tuesday morning with reporters and editors from various Southern California news outlets to discuss how the American media portrays Islam and Muslims.

The regional office of the Muslim American advocacy and civil liberties group organized the event mainly to give media representatives information, resources and ideas on how to cover Muslims in a more positive light, as they are often typecast.

"Present Muslims like common people,"
said Ahlam Muhtaseb, assistant professor of communications studies at Cal State San Bernardino.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Muslims' loyalty to the United States has been questioned, and they have been scrutinized and lumped into one group that is seen as untrustworthy and not American enough, said Munira Syeda, CAIR-LA spokeswoman.

Lately, the coverage of the proposed building of an Islamic center, Park51, near the former World Trade Center site in New York City; the abandoned plan by a Florida church to burn the Koran on the ninth anniversary of 9/11; and the upcoming midterm elections has thrust Muslims into the national spotlight.

Typically when there is coverage of Islam or Muslims, it is done in a negative frame of mind, said Hussam Ayloush, executive director of CAIR-LA.

For example, coverage of Muslims or Islam occurs mainly when a group who uses Islam to advance its agenda commits a suicide bombing in Iraq or elsewhere, or when someone, who also uses Islam to fulfill his goal, is suspected of committing a terrorist act, he said.

But ordinary, everyday Muslims, who make up most of the nearly 1.5 billion followers of Islam worldwide — 6 to 8 million of them in the United States — are not seen or heard, Ayloush said.

As a result, certain words trigger fear or negative perceptions of Muslims among Americans.

Ayloush said people have told him they equate the word "Islam" with terrorism, violence, and intolerance toward women, among other negative perceptions, none of which Islam represents.

On the other hand, positive stories about Muslim doctors who travel overseas to provide medical assistance to the poor, Muslim nurses who tend to the sick, Muslim public school teachers who work in inner cities and neighborhoods, and Muslims volunteers who raise funds for Haiti and other disaster-stricken areas are nowhere to be found on TV, radio or in newspapers, Ayloush said.

The idea is not to refrain from telling the negative stories, but to include the majority of Muslims in daily coverage, in the human interest stories that are heard and read everywhere, Ayloush said.

I read this article in my morning paper before I saw your post.

These Muslims held a press conference. Why didn't you read about it or post it?
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:28 PM   #278
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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...
Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.

Shall I assume then that every Catholic supports child molestation? I mean, surely you would think more Catholics would be speaking out against the priest scandal, right, but since they aren't doing so in loud, vocal terms, well... Or hey, I could stereotype all conservatives based on the Palins and Becks of the world, too, they're not speaking up enough against those people's actions and words, so naturally they must agree with them.

No. You do not judge an entire group based on the actions of some. The nutcases always make the news. If somebody watching can't differentiate between those idiots burning American symbols and the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims, then that's their problem to deal with, not mine or anyone else's.

Quote:
They constituted an insult to those who hold that there can be no peaceful cooperation among people and nations without submission to Sharia; to those who wish to impose the legal system of Islam on the rest of us.

But New York and Sharia are incompatible. New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York’s Mayor recently said that New York is “rooted in Dutch tolerance.”
Maybe my reading skills are failing me tonight, but that part really confused me.

Quote:
An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building this mosque.

So is an overwhelming majority everywhere in the non-Islamic world.
And naturally because a majority supports or opposes something, this means they're automatically right. What about those who have no problem with the CENTER (it's not a mosque, it's a center. Probably would help to use the right term before you go spouting other opinions on the topic)? Do our voices not matter, then? Why are we in the wrong and you in the right?

Quote:
The West never “harmed” Islam before it harmed us.
Really?

He's totally contradicting himself here. He keeps talking about how wonderful America is compared to those evil Muslim countries, how great we are because we allow all sorts of different cultures and tolerate different lifestyles and so on, and then he turns right around and says that those who support the center being built aren't to be listened to, that we must side with the majority who oppose it.

And again, of course, nothing, but nothing, justifies what happened to those innocent souls on 9/11. Nothing. There was absolutely no reason they had to die as they did. The people who committed that act are assholes and I sincerely hope they pay the most severe of prices for their horrific crimes. They attacked a nation based on their beef with things they presume some people in our country may or may not have done.

However, some of the terrorists that have committed acts here and abroad have gotten some of their training here in the U.S.-studying weaponry and military knowledge and such (and aren't ya glad we're so in love with weapons that we can do that!). We do have a tendency to treat the Middle East in general like crap. We have a problem with trying to see the Arab nations' side on any issue. We stereotype an entire religion based on the psychotic actions of some of its members. Muslims here and abroad are suspected and harassed and abused simply because they're Muslim. We have to stop denying that that is happening. These problems have been going on for eons and blame can be spread around all over the place, but just as the Muslim extremists who are burning things and attacking people and whatnot aren't helping the situation, neither are we. Everybody on both sides needs to settle down, grow up, and rearrange their attitudes drastically.

Angela
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Old 09-15-2010, 08:33 PM   #279
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Are you serious?
yeah

Quote:
What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?
I don't know, all I know is that there were MASSIVE violent protests.

Quote:
Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?
I don't watch fox news really.

Quote:
They don't speak up? Are you sure?
I was referring to Muslims in the Middle-east, not the westernized ones here in the US.


Quote:
But ordinary, everyday Muslims, who make up most of the nearly 1.5 billion followers of Islam worldwide — 6 to 8 million of them in the United States — are not seen or heard, Ayloush said.

As a result, certain words trigger fear or negative perceptions of Muslims among Americans.

Ayloush said people have told him they equate the word "Islam" with terrorism, violence, and intolerance toward women, among other negative perceptions, none of which Islam represents.
That is something I totally agree with.
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Old 09-16-2010, 12:16 AM   #280
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yeah

I don't watch fox news really.
You kinda missed my point, which is you just seem very unaware that there are at least two sides to the story.

What is your exposure to Middle-Eastern Muslims?
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Old 09-16-2010, 11:57 AM   #281
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Thanks Deep for the CAIR article, they have very good website. I enjoy reading their articles. Since, I have Mulsim family members and friends.

Multi ethnic, Interfaith families.....are we the new face of America?
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:54 PM   #282
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the silk layer fooled you?
What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:05 PM   #283
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What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?
Quote:
It must defend itself against the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance. It cannot tolerate the intolerant – and survive.

This means that we must not give a free hand to those who want to subjugate us.
That sounds an awful lot like the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance are Muslims that want a place to join in community and worship.

Quote:
Because we all realize what is at stake here. We know what this so-called Cordoba mosque really means. Imam Rauf maintains that American secular law and Sharia law are based on the same principles.
Needless fear mongering based on the mistaken belief that Muslims erect these mosques in the hopes of turning the United States into a Muslim nation that holds Sharia law as the law of the land.

Quote:
For their sakes, we must draw the line. So that New York, rooted in Dutch tolerance, will never become New Mecca.
Again with the needless fear mongering. The erection of a mosque in downtown Manhattan, or anywhere in the United States, is not an indication that they're trying to take over, it's an indication that the United States is still a country that lives up to its ideals of religious freedom to all.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:54 PM   #284
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i read a lot, not all of the posts from Pg1 to now-- i had wanted to responded earlier but my access to The Net while better -is still not steady, and here from where I am posting now (but haven't be around as much in the past 4 weeks) is steady AND Speedier connection.

SO here's another New York Ctiy'er weighing in.
First here was my 9-11 experience ( some of you might have read my annual or so post on this)


I don't listen/watch TV in the morning UNLESS I know in advance about something extraordinarily Wonderful OR Terrible to take a peek. It's too distracting for me! I DO however usually run around with a walkman or radio with earbuds in!

Sept 11, 2001- I had the walkman with me, earbuds in BUT NOT Turned on!

I got up at 10AM ad left the house at around 10:28A or so, rushing down the street. I see a beautiful blue sky and happy (not rain type) sumer cloud ahead of me in the distance, peeking over local buildings.

Suddenly I switch my AM news station and 3 newspeople are talking about firefighters covered in ash, and it looks like a movie but it ISN'T. They in the midst of their intensity DO NOT SAY What or Where this is happening! I get a vision of a particular type of massive Queens apt Complex.

I am going at right angles to my home street. AS I cross the street to go towards the subway station the broadcasters turn silent .I hit he block and am now in the same direction I was as I left my Apt building ( this is very important) .

One man suddenly comes back on after ?20 plus seconds in radio silence (real "Dead Air" as it is called ) and says "The Towers are GONE".

I stop dead in my racks as I start to only semi-consciously put 2 +2+ 2 together. I remember I AM now again facing Lower Manhattan as I was when I first left the house.The light-bulb then goes on over my head!
I squint at that "happy summer cloud" and realized it DOESN'T HAVE the Correct Colors and Shadows for THIS time of day! It is lightish yellow-beige-gray. AND it looks more dense, more rough than a normal cloud should be!

It all gets put togther in one terrifying second that I AM looking at the cloud of death and destruction of The Towers . I run back home screaming. ANd so now I joined the agony of the day & days ahead here in my NYC.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
i can't believe this is an issue. it's embarrassing.

as ever, the Republicans are using hatred, fear, bigotry, and racism and opening their arms to the hateful, the fearful, the bigots, and the racists amongst us.

they want a clash of civilizations, they really, really do.

compared to Gingrich, Palin, et al, W Bush looks positively complex and nuanced.
a heh........

their ARE on BOTH Sides some Muslims and some Christians really do and they might take everyone else with them should it ever ( ) get into nuclear weapons



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Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Really? You don't think the fact that Muslim is attached to it in anyway would be enough? Looking at your arguments, I think you've proved otherwise.

It's actually a community center with a place to pray, it is not a Mosque.
it doesn't help being mislabeled-- the man who's idea it was WANTED to have a center as a contribution to the LM community . He also helped on the day of 9-11 ad afterwards!

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Originally Posted by Moonlit_Angel View Post
This is the question I always ask. I guess the only possible answer would be fear of some kind, but really, what exactly are you afraid will happen? I just don't understand how someone can allow fear and ignorance to run their lives. And those who don't live anywhere near New York City, I really don't understand the issues they have with this. You don't live there, what the hell do you care?

Also, believe it or not, there are people who were personally affected by 9/11 who don't have an ax to grind with the Muslim community as a whole. Not everyone who experiences a horrific event up close and personal wants retaliation and revenge, so you can't exactly use that as a reason, either. Muslims lost loved ones that day, too, for crying out loud!


(And aren't we already sort of friends with Saudi Arabia? You know, 'cause of the oil we get from them and everything? So, um, yeah. And isn't the fact that they won't build a church in their country but we'll allow a mosque in ours the reason why we're better than them, supposedly, why America's "#1!"?
)

to the rest of what you said, too, by the way.

Angela

I feel NO one ELSE but NYC'r have the right to make the say. And the Constitution gives them the right to build it.
ugh have to leave here... will finish more replies to post at home!
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Old 09-16-2010, 07:27 PM   #285
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Needless fear mongering based on the mistaken belief that Muslims erect these mosques in the hopes of turning the United States into a Muslim nation that holds Sharia law as the law of the land.
The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

Just ask Aisha Duhulowa.
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