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Old 09-10-2010, 07:19 PM   #256
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But I'm not singling out Islam as violent nor am I saying Christianity is completely innocent. I was just pointing out the reasons why Muslims have difficulty handling criticism of their religion.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:22 PM   #257
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Well, I suspect that it has less to do with the actual religion and more with the dominant culture present in some countries that precludes people from accepting criticism. Note that throughout this whole burning the Qu'ran episode, Muslims in places like the U.S. Canada, France, the U.K. and elsewhere didn't start protesting violently.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:26 PM   #258
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True, but my guess is because Muslims living in the West are in countries where criticism of any religion is OK, and they've grown up in such a place, so they're probably used to criticism of Islam.

Other countries like Afghanistan have had theocracy and Islam dominating their culture for so many centuries, so perhaps that influenced their violent protests.
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Old 09-10-2010, 07:28 PM   #259
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That's pretty much exactly what I'm saying. It's not the religion, it's the environment. In my opinion, of course.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:15 PM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
Yeah it does, but that's the Old Testament. The New Testament is different from that.

But then again, that's a whole other topic. Not that I want to get off of it, I just don't want to derail the thread.

And besides, what does one have to do with the other?
You really don't get my point?

You judged a religion based on one piece of the book that you've heard about, not even studied.

Well someone could do the same for Judeo-Christian religions.
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Old 09-10-2010, 08:42 PM   #261
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You really don't get my point?

You judged a religion based on one piece of the book that you've heard about, not even studied.

Well someone could do the same for Judeo-Christian religions.
I really don't think I judged because I said "correct me if I'm wrong". If I came out and said bluntly, "Islam preaches death to those who criticize it", then I would've been judgmental.
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Old 09-10-2010, 09:25 PM   #262
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I really don't think I judged because I said "correct me if I'm wrong". If I came out and said bluntly, "Islam preaches death to those who criticize it", then I would've been judgmental.
My point is that you sound like you're proceeding with that understanding.

I wonder how many are proceeding the same way about Judeo-Christian religions?
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Old 09-11-2010, 12:27 AM   #263
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Obama said he was proud the country had rallied around the idea that we can't be divided because of religion or ethnicity - and hopes that is something that can continue.

"We are all Americans, we stand together," Obama said. "I think it is absolutely important now for majority of Americans to hang onto that thing that is best in us: a belief in religious tolerance. We have to make sure we don't start turning on each other."

"We are one nation under God. We may call that God different names, but we are one nation."
Obama: 'We are not at war against Islam' – This Just In - CNN.com Blogs

Utter rot.
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Old 09-11-2010, 01:53 AM   #264
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Obviously understand where atheists would have some issue with the speech, but I still thought it was pretty nice regardless, if kind of a "DUH" statement. Problem is, the people who should be getting this message probably aren't going to or won't care .

Quote:
"We are not at war against Islam. We are at war against terrorist organizations that have distorted Islam or falsely used the banner of Islam," Obama said. "If we're going to deal with the problems Ed Henry was talking about - reducing the terrorist threat - we need all the allies we can get."

Obama pressed that in fact, the anti-Islam sentiment and a war between the West and Islam is exactly what terrorist organizations are hoping for.

"Al Qaeda, that's what they've been banking on," Obama said. "The overwhelming majority of Muslims are peace-loving - are interested in the same things that you and I are interested in."
This bit really should be distributed to every last person in the western world. Perhaps every week, just to drill these facts into people's heads. It's really, really sad that Obama (and Bush-as Rachel Maddow pointed out on her show tonight, he said similar things shortly after 9/11...course, his administration's latter actions spoke otherwise, but still...) has to actually tell people this.

Of course, nothing excuses any violent activity from the Muslim community, just as nothing excuses violent activity from Christians or any other faith or those of no faith or whatever. The Muslim faith should be held up to the same scrutiny we give every other belief system. Free speech is a two-way street, after all.

But simply chanting "Death to America" (which can be taken figuratively as well as literally) and burning flags doesn't exactly qualify as "violent" behavior. Just a mere expression of anger. Maybe not the best expression in some people's eyes, but as long as they're not hurting any actual people with their protests, they're free to rant and rave. And besides that, just as they need to examine their faith's faults, we should re-examine the way we're seeing the Islamic faith, too. Idiotic, ignorant comments about the religion, stereotyping everybody, pushing buttons just for the hell of it to see what happens...that stuff's got to stop. It's childish, immature, and at its worst moments, quite dangerous. That goes for everything, actually. We're adults. Let's actually try acting like such.

Angela
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Old 09-11-2010, 10:45 AM   #265
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Old 09-14-2010, 10:55 AM   #266
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September 11th, 2010 9:40 AM
If the 'Mosque' Isn't Built, This Is No Longer America

OpenMike 9/11/10
Michael Moore's daily blog

I am opposed to the building of the "mosque" two blocks from Ground Zero.

I want it built on Ground Zero.

Why? Because I believe in an America that protects those who are the victims of hate and prejudice. I believe in an America that says you have the right to worship whatever God you have, wherever you want to worship. And I believe in an America that says to the world that we are a loving and generous people and if a bunch of murderers steal your religion from you and use it as their excuse to kill 3,000 souls, then I want to help you get your religion back. And I want to put it at the spot where it was stolen from you.

There's been so much that's been said about this manufactured controversy, I really don't want to waste any time on this day of remembrance talking about it. But I hate bigotry and I hate liars, and so in case you missed any of the truth that's been lost in this, let me point out a few facts:

1. I love the Burlington Coat Factory. I've gotten some great winter coats there at a very reasonable price. Muslims have been holding their daily prayers there since 2009. No one ever complained about that. This is not going to be a "mosque," it's going to be a community center. It will have the same prayer room in it that's already there. But to even have to assure people that "it's not going to be mosque" is so offensive, I now wish they would just build a 111-story mosque there. That would be better than the lame and disgusting way the developer has left Ground Zero an empty hole until recently. The remains of over 1,100 people still haven't been found. That site is a sacred graveyard, and to be building another monument to commerce on it is a sacrilege. Why wasn't the entire site turned into a memorial peace park? People died there, and many of their remains are still strewn about, all these years later.

2. Guess who has helped the Muslims organize their plans for this community center? The JEWISH COMMUNITY CENTER of Manhattan! Their rabbi has been advising them since the beginning. It's been a picture-perfect example of the kind of world we all want to live in. Peter Stuyvessant, New York's "founder," tried to expel the first Jews who arrived in Manhattan. Then the Dutch said, no, that's a bit much. So then Stuyvessant said ok, you can stay, but you cannot build a synagogue anywhere in Manhattan. Do your stupid Friday night thing at home. The first Jewish temple was not allowed to be built until 1730. Then there was a revolution, and the founding fathers said this country has to be secular -- no religious nuts or state religions. George Washington (inaugurated around the corner from Ground Zero) wanted to make a statement about this his very first year in office, and wrote this to American Jews:

"The citizens of the United States of America have a right to applaud themselves for having given to mankind examples of an enlarged and liberal policy -- a policy worthy of imitation. ...

"It is now no more that toleration is spoken of as if it were the indulgence of one class of people that another enjoyed the exercise of their inherent natural rights, for, happily, the Government of the United States, which gives to bigotry no sanction, to persecution no assistance, requires only that they who live under its protection should demean themselves as good citizens ...

"May the children of the stock of Abraham who dwell in this land continue to merit and enjoy the good will of the other inhabitants -- while every one shall sit in safety under his own vine and fig tree and there shall be none to make him afraid."

3. The Imam in charge of this project is the nicest guy you'd ever want to meet. Read about his past here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/ny...imam.html?_r=1

4. Around five dozen Muslims died at the World Trade Center on 9/11. Hundreds of members of their families still grieve and suffer. The 19 killers did not care what religion anyone belonged to when they took those lives.

5. I've never read a sadder headline in the New York Times than the one on the front page this past Monday: "American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?" That should make all of us so ashamed that even a single one of our fellow citizens should ever have to worry about if they "belong" here.

6. There is a McDonald's two blocks from Ground Zero. Trust me, McDonald's has killed far more people than the terrorists.

7. During an economic depression or a time of war, fascists are extremely skilled at whipping up fear and hate and getting the working class to blame "the other" for their troubles. Lincoln's enemies told poor Southern whites that he was "a Catholic." FDR's opponents said he was Jewish and called him "Jewsevelt." One in five Americans now believe Obama is a Muslim and 41% of Republicans don't believe he was born here.

8. Blaming a whole group for the actions of just one of that group is anti-American. Timothy McVeigh was Catholic. Should Oklahoma City prohibit the building of a Catholic Church near the site of the former federal building that McVeigh blew up?

9. Let's face it, all religions have their whackos. Catholics have O'Reilly, Gingrich, Hannity and Clarence Thomas (in fact all five conservatives who dominate the Supreme Court are Catholic). Protestants have Pat Robertson and too many to list here. The Mormons have Glenn Beck. Jews have Crazy Eddie. But we don't judge whole religions on just the actions of their whackos. Unless they're Methodists.

10. If I should ever, God forbid, perish in a terrorist incident, and you or some nutty group uses my death as your justification to attack or discriminate against anyone in my name, I will come back and haunt you worse than Linda Blair marrying Freddy Krueger and moving into your bedroom to spawn Chucky. John Lennon was right when he asked us to imagine a world with "nothing to kill or die for and no religion, too." I heard Deepak Chopra this week say that "God gave humans the truth, and the devil came and he said, 'Let's give it a name and call it religion.' " But John Adams said it best when he wrote a sort of letter to the future (which he called "Posterity"): "Posterity! You will never know how much it cost the present Generation to preserve your Freedom! I hope you will make a good use of it. If you do not, I shall repent in Heaven that I ever took half the Pains to preserve it." I'm guessing ol' John Adams is up there repenting nonstop right now.

Friends, we all have a responsibility NOW to make sure that Muslim community center gets built. Once again, 70% of the country (the same number that initially supported the Iraq War) is on the wrong side and want the "mosque" moved. Enormous pressure has been put on the Imam to stop his project. We have to turn this thing around. Are we going to let the bullies and thugs win another one? Aren't you fed up by now? When would be a good time to take our country back from the haters?

I say right now. Let's each of us make a statement by donating to the building of this community center! It's a nonprofit, tax-exempt organization and you can donate a dollar or ten dollars (or more) right now through a secure pay pal account by clicking here. I will personally match the first $10,000 raised (forward your PayPal receipt to webguy@michaelmoore.com). If each one of you reading this blog/email donated just a couple of dollars, that would give the center over $6 million, more than what Donald Trump has offered to buy the Imam out. C'mon everyone, let's pitch in and help those who are being debased for simply wanting to do something good. We could all make a huge statement of love on this solemn day.

I lost a co-worker on 9/11. I write this today in his memory.


"The man who speaks of the enemy / Is the enemy himself."
-- Bertolt Brecht
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Old 09-14-2010, 12:52 PM   #267
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if assholes from both sides of the ideological divide like mike moore and sarah palin would have just stayed out of this, the community center would probably have been built already. only once this became a political issue was there any debate.
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Old 09-14-2010, 06:33 PM   #268
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"It's so touching back there... the Teamsters are helping Michael Moore into the trunk of his limo." ~ Steve Martin

On a more serious note:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/09/1...ex.html?hpt=C1

A meaningful excerpt:

"Finally, we also learned how Jews, Christians and people of other or no faiths all categorically rejected the idea of burning the Quran as disrespectful and even harmful. In that sense, Jones' story had a happy ending, showing that there is such a thing as reason and compassion in the hearts of the high and mighty and the ordinary folk, which trumped hatred and bigotry."
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Old 09-14-2010, 09:05 PM   #269
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The meaning of being legitimately scared of terrorism?

I don't think that burning books is a nice thing, but I think that having a society intimidated into silence about certain topics is very wrong. The pastor was a fool; he advocates the same sorts of intolerance and hatred that Islamists do, but I feel very uncomfortable with the narrative that burning a koran is automatically wrong and that Islam is intrinsically a religion of peace.

People should have the freedom to burn their own property. Religions should be criticised. We shouldn't make excuses for people who become violent over their faith.
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Old 09-15-2010, 01:25 AM   #270
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I honestly don't pay much attention to Mr. Moore-I've heard him speak here and there, but I don't exactly follow the guy. But some good points are made in that blog of his, namely these two:

Quote:
4. Around five dozen Muslims died at the World Trade Center on 9/11. Hundreds of members of their families still grieve and suffer. The 19 killers did not care what religion anyone belonged to when they took those lives.

5. I've never read a sadder headline in the New York Times than the one on the front page this past Monday: "American Muslims Ask, Will We Ever Belong?" That should make all of us so ashamed that even a single one of our fellow citizens should ever have to worry about if they "belong" here.
Well put.

Fascinating article with the commentators' opinions on the topic. I particularly liked reading their thoughts about the media coverage surrounding it all-can't say I really disagree with a lot of what they said. We should've called the pastor out on his ignorance, let him go ahead with his rally if he so chose, and just chalked it up to a lone guy who wanted to throw a hissy fit for no reason. We gave him way more power than we should have. Can we pass that article on to the rest of the news media?

Stephen Prothero said it best:

Quote:
1. There are extremists in every religion. Islam has them. Christianity has them. We shouldn't let our perceptions of Christianity be determined by Terry Jones, or our perceptions of Islam by al Qaeda.
I don't get why that is so hard for people to understand. It should be so simple.

Angela
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