House Of Evil / Seed Of Peace

[The_Pac_Mule]

I don't get why that is so hard for people to understand. It should be so simple.

Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.

This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand.

 

[BVS]

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand.

Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...

 

[Bonoa]

Hate speech covered with a layer of silk. I paid tax for his trip!

YouTube - Speech Geert Wilders Ground Zero New York City 11th September 2010

"Dear friends, May I ask you to be silent for ten seconds? Just be silent and listen. Ten seconds. And listen… What we hear are the sounds of life in the greatest city on earth.

No place in the world, no place in human history, is as richly varied and vibrant and dynamic as New York City. You hear the cars, you hear the people, you hear them rushing to their various destinations, you hear the sounds of business and of pleasure, you hear the cheers, you hear the cries, the buzzing sounds of human activity. And that is how it should be.

Always. Now close your eyes – I know it’s a beautiful day, but close your eyes. I have been told that this day nine years ago was just such a beautiful day -- and remember, or try to remember, or try to imagine the sounds which were heard here on this spot under this same blue sky exactly nine years ago. The sound of shock, the sound of destruction, the sound of panic, the sound of pain, the sound of terror.

Did New York deserve this? Did America deserve this? Did the West deserve this? What, my friends, would you say to people who argue that New York, that America, that the West had itself to blame for those horrible sounds?

There are people in this city who argue this. And they are angry because we are gathered here today to commemorate, to make a stand, to draw the line. My friends, I have come from the other side of the Atlantic to share your grief for those who died here nine years ago. I have not forgotten how I felt that day.

The scenes are imprinted on my soul, as they are on yours.

But our hearts were not broken in the same way as the hearts of the relatives and friends of those who lost their lives here. Many relatives of the victims are here in our midst today.

I wish to take this opportunity to express my deepest and most heartfelt condolences to them and to all of the people of New York and America. Humbly, I stand here before you as a Dutchman and a European.

I, too, however, cannot forget. How can anyone forget?

Let me remind you of the words from Darryl Worley’s 9/11 song. Have you forgotten how it felt that day?

To see your homeland under fire And her people blown away Have you forgotten when those towers fell?

We had neighbors still inside going thru a living hell Worley’s response is our response: No, we will NEVER forget. We are here today because we have not forgotten all the loved ones that were lost and those left to carry on.

And neither has the world. When the forces of Jihad attacked New York, they attacked the world. Among those lost were people from 55 nations, people of every religion and every persuasion. No place on earth had a more multi-ethnic, multi-racial, and multi-lingual workforce than New York’s proud towers.

That is exactly why they were targeted. They constituted an insult to those who hold that there can be no peaceful cooperation among people and nations without submission to Sharia; to those who wish to impose the legal system of Islam on the rest of us.

But New York and Sharia are incompatible. New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York’s Mayor recently said that New York is “rooted in Dutch tolerance.”

Those are true words. New York is not intolerant. How can it be? New York is open to the world. Suppose New York were intolerant. Suppose it only allowed people of one persuasion within its walls.

Then it would be like Mecca, a city without freedom. Whatever your religion, persuasion or gender is, in New York you will find a home.

In Mecca, if your religion isn’t Islam, you are not welcome. Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf claims the right to build a mosque, a house of Sharia here – on this hallowed ground.

But, friends, I have not forgotten and neither have you.

That is why we are here today. To draw the line.

Here, on this sacred spot. We are here in the spirit of America’s founding fathers. We are here in the spirit of freedom. We are here in the spirit of Abraham Lincoln, the President who freed the slaves. President Lincoln said: “Those who deny freedom to others, deserve it not for themselves.”

These words are the key to our survival. The tolerance that is crucial to our freedom requires a line of defense. Mayor Bloomberg uses tolerance as an argument to allow Imam Rauf and his sponsors to build their so-called Cordoba Mosque.

Mayor Bloomberg forgets, however, that openness cannot be open-ended. A tolerant society is not a suicidal society.

It must defend itself against the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance. It cannot tolerate the intolerant – and survive.

This means that we must not give a free hand to those who want to subjugate us. An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building this mosque.

So is an overwhelming majority everywhere in the non-Islamic world.

Because we all realize what is at stake here. We know what this so-called Cordoba mosque really means. Imam Rauf maintains that American secular law and Sharia law are based on the same principles.

He refuses to condemn terrorists because he says terrorism is “a very complex question”. He says America is “an accessory to the crime that happened on 9/11.”

“In fact,” he literally said, “in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”

He also says that “terrorism will only end when the West acknowledges the harm it has done to Muslims.”

That is why this man should not play the game he has in mind here in Manhattan. His “Blame the West, Blame America”-message is an insult. Americans – and by extension, all of us whose civilization was also attacked on 9/11/2001 – are not to blame for what happened here nine years ago today. Osama bin Laden is not made in the USA.

The West never “harmed” Islam before it harmed us.

Most Americans do not want this so-called Cordoba Mosque to be built here. They understand that it is both a provocation and a humiliation. They understand the triumphant narrative of a mosque named after the Great Mosque of Cordoba which was constructed where a Christian cathedral stood before the land was conquered by Islam.

An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building an Islamic cultural center close to Ground Zero. There is no lack of mosques in New York. There are dozens of buildings in which Muslims can pray. It isn’t about a lack of space for prayers.

It’s about the symbolic meaning. We who have come to speak today, object to this mosque project because its promoter and his wealthy sponsors have never suggested building a center to promote tolerance and interfaith understanding where it is really needed: In Mecca – a town where non-Muslims are not even allowed to enter, let alone build churches, synagogues, temples or community centers.

Ordinary Americans object to the mosque project because currently no fewer than ten major multi-million dollar mosque projects are being planned in the United States as well as dozens in Europe, while not a single church is allowed in the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, while Jews are not even allowed to move their lips in prayer on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem, while the oldest Christians in the world, the Copts, are not free to renovate their churches, let alone to build one in Egypt.

My friends, that is why we are here today. What happens in New York must be seen in the perspective of the world.

The events nine years ago made an enormous impact everywhere. Most people shared your pain, but, unfortunately, some did not.

Nine years ago, when the news of the terrible atrocity in New York reached Europe, Muslim youths danced in the streets. In a poll, two thirds of the Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands expressed partial or full understanding for the 9/11 terrorists.

If a mosque were built here on Ground Zero such people would feel triumphant. But we, we will not betray those who died on 9/11.

For their sakes we cannot tolerate a mosque on or near Ground Zero. For their sakes loud and clear we say: No mosque here! For their sakes, we must draw the line. So that New York, rooted in Dutch tolerance, will never become New Mecca.

But, let us also express our gratitude for the heroes of 9/11, those who went down in that Pennsylvania field, those who were standing freedom’s watch at the Pentagon, and those who were here in New York nine years ago to risk and lose their lives for the victims.

Friends, in honor of these victims, these heroes and their families, I believe that the words of Ronald Reagan, spoken in Normandy on the 40 th anniversary of D-Day, resonate with new purpose on this hallowed spot.

President Reagan said: “We will always remember. We will always be proud. We will always be prepared, so we may always be free.” And, we, too, will always remember the victims of 9/11 and their loved ones who were left behind; We, too, will always be proud of the heroes; We will always defend liberty, democracy and human dignity; In the name of freedom: No mosque here!"

(Source: Weblog Geertwilders - NYC speech Geert Wilders )

 

[nathan1977]

I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.

 

[A stor]

Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...

Well Said, Pastor Jones had his fifteen minutes of fame and then some. Most Americans opposed what he planed to do, religuous or not. Didn't see them get the same coverage. Guess the nutjobs make for a better news story.

 

[deep]

I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.

the silk layer fooled you?


(I come not to praise Caesar, but to bury him)

 

[deep]

Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.


This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm. I don't know if this Death-to-America/Israel is the majority viewpoint or not, (probably not), but how could we know, because those who don't support this shit don't speak up! They simply turn the other way.

That's why it's hard for some people to understand..

They don't speak up? Are you sure?

CAIR-LA: Media coverage of Islam unbalanced

Advocacy group says normal, peaceful Muslims are not in news stories, only the violent extremists.
By Mona Shadia, mona.shadia@latimes.com

8:26 PM PDT, September 14, 2010


ANAHEIM — The Greater Los Angeles Area chapter of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR-LA) held a media breakfast at its offices Tuesday morning with reporters and editors from various Southern California news outlets to discuss how the American media portrays Islam and Muslims.

The regional office of the Muslim American advocacy and civil liberties group organized the event mainly to give media representatives information, resources and ideas on how to cover Muslims in a more positive light, as they are often typecast.

"Present Muslims like common people," said Ahlam Muhtaseb, assistant professor of communications studies at Cal State San Bernardino.

Since the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Muslims' loyalty to the United States has been questioned, and they have been scrutinized and lumped into one group that is seen as untrustworthy and not American enough, said Munira Syeda, CAIR-LA spokeswoman.

Lately, the coverage of the proposed building of an Islamic center, Park51, near the former World Trade Center site in New York City; the abandoned plan by a Florida church to burn the Koran on the ninth anniversary of 9/11; and the upcoming midterm elections has thrust Muslims into the national spotlight.

Typically when there is coverage of Islam or Muslims, it is done in a negative frame of mind, said Hussam Ayloush, executive director of CAIR-LA.

For example, coverage of Muslims or Islam occurs mainly when a group who uses Islam to advance its agenda commits a suicide bombing in Iraq or elsewhere, or when someone, who also uses Islam to fulfill his goal, is suspected of committing a terrorist act, he said.

But ordinary, everyday Muslims, who make up most of the nearly 1.5 billion followers of Islam worldwide — 6 to 8 million of them in the United States — are not seen or heard, Ayloush said.

As a result, certain words trigger fear or negative perceptions of Muslims among Americans.

Ayloush said people have told him they equate the word "Islam" with terrorism, violence, and intolerance toward women, among other negative perceptions, none of which Islam represents.

On the other hand, positive stories about Muslim doctors who travel overseas to provide medical assistance to the poor, Muslim nurses who tend to the sick, Muslim public school teachers who work in inner cities and neighborhoods, and Muslims volunteers who raise funds for Haiti and other disaster-stricken areas are nowhere to be found on TV, radio or in newspapers, Ayloush said.

The idea is not to refrain from telling the negative stories, but to include the majority of Muslims in daily coverage, in the human interest stories that are heard and read everywhere, Ayloush said.

I read this article in my morning paper before I saw your post.

These Muslims held a press conference. Why didn't you read about it or post it?

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Are you serious?

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

Ask yourself that...

Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.

Shall I assume then that every Catholic supports child molestation? I mean, surely you would think more Catholics would be speaking out against the priest scandal, right, but since they aren't doing so in loud, vocal terms, well... Or hey, I could stereotype all conservatives based on the Palins and Becks of the world, too, they're not speaking up enough against those people's actions and words, so naturally they must agree with them.

No. You do not judge an entire group based on the actions of some. The nutcases always make the news. If somebody watching can't differentiate between those idiots burning American symbols and the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims, then that's their problem to deal with, not mine or anyone else's.

They constituted an insult to those who hold that there can be no peaceful cooperation among people and nations without submission to Sharia; to those who wish to impose the legal system of Islam on the rest of us.

But New York and Sharia are incompatible. New York stands for freedom, openness and tolerance. New York’s Mayor recently said that New York is “rooted in Dutch tolerance.”

Maybe my reading skills are failing me tonight, but that part really confused me.

An overwhelming majority of Americans is opposed to building this mosque.

So is an overwhelming majority everywhere in the non-Islamic world.

And naturally because a majority supports or opposes something, this means they're automatically right. What about those who have no problem with the CENTER (it's not a mosque, it's a center. Probably would help to use the right term before you go spouting other opinions on the topic)? Do our voices not matter, then? Why are we in the wrong and you in the right?

The West never “harmed” Islam before it harmed us.

Really?

He's totally contradicting himself here. He keeps talking about how wonderful America is compared to those evil Muslim countries, how great we are because we allow all sorts of different cultures and tolerate different lifestyles and so on, and then he turns right around and says that those who support the center being built aren't to be listened to, that we must side with the majority who oppose it.

And again, of course, nothing, but nothing, justifies what happened to those innocent souls on 9/11. Nothing. There was absolutely no reason they had to die as they did. The people who committed that act are assholes and I sincerely hope they pay the most severe of prices for their horrific crimes. They attacked a nation based on their beef with things they presume some people in our country may or may not have done.

However, some of the terrorists that have committed acts here and abroad have gotten some of their training here in the U.S.-studying weaponry and military knowledge and such (and aren't ya glad we're so in love with weapons that we can do that!). We do have a tendency to treat the Middle East in general like crap. We have a problem with trying to see the Arab nations' side on any issue. We stereotype an entire religion based on the psychotic actions of some of its members. Muslims here and abroad are suspected and harassed and abused simply because they're Muslim. We have to stop denying that that is happening. These problems have been going on for eons and blame can be spread around all over the place, but just as the Muslim extremists who are burning things and attacking people and whatnot aren't helping the situation, neither are we. Everybody on both sides needs to settle down, grow up, and rearrange their attitudes drastically.

Angela

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

Are you serious?

yeah

What do you think makes the newspapers in the Middle East? The fact that a dumb fuck was ripping pages out of the Quaraan on Saturday and wanted to burn them, or that there were a lot of opposition to him doing so?

I don't know, all I know is that there were MASSIVE violent protests.

Now ask yourself, what will Fox News report on, a group of kids burning an American flag, or those that oppose it?

I don't watch fox news really.

They don't speak up? Are you sure?

I was referring to Muslims in the Middle-east, not the westernized ones here in the US.

But ordinary, everyday Muslims, who make up most of the nearly 1.5 billion followers of Islam worldwide — 6 to 8 million of them in the United States — are not seen or heard, Ayloush said.

As a result, certain words trigger fear or negative perceptions of Muslims among Americans.

Ayloush said people have told him they equate the word "Islam" with terrorism, violence, and intolerance toward women, among other negative perceptions, none of which Islam represents.

That is something I totally agree with.

 

[BVS]

yeah

I don't watch fox news really.

You kinda missed my point, which is you just seem very unaware that there are at least two sides to the story.

What is your exposure to Middle-Eastern Muslims?

 

[A stor]

Thanks Deep for the CAIR article, they have very good website. I enjoy reading their articles. Since, I have Mulsim family members and friends.

Multi ethnic, Interfaith families.....are we the new face of America?

 

[nathan1977]

the silk layer fooled you?

What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?

 

[Diemen]

What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?

It must defend itself against the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance. It cannot tolerate the intolerant – and survive.

This means that we must not give a free hand to those who want to subjugate us.

That sounds an awful lot like the powers of darkness, the force of hatred and the blight of ignorance are Muslims that want a place to join in community and worship.

Because we all realize what is at stake here. We know what this so-called Cordoba mosque really means. Imam Rauf maintains that American secular law and Sharia law are based on the same principles.

Needless fear mongering based on the mistaken belief that Muslims erect these mosques in the hopes of turning the United States into a Muslim nation that holds Sharia law as the law of the land.

For their sakes, we must draw the line. So that New York, rooted in Dutch tolerance, will never become New Mecca.

Again with the needless fear mongering. The erection of a mosque in downtown Manhattan, or anywhere in the United States, is not an indication that they're trying to take over, it's an indication that the United States is still a country that lives up to its ideals of religious freedom to all.

 

[dazzledbylight]

i read a lot, not all of the posts from Pg1 to now-- i had wanted to responded earlier but my access to The Net while better -is still not steady, and here from where I am posting now (but haven't be around as much in the past 4 weeks) is steady AND Speedier connection.

SO here's another New York Ctiy'er weighing in.
First here was my 9-11 experience ( some of you might have read my annual or so post on this)

I don't listen/watch TV in the morning UNLESS I know in advance about something extraordinarily Wonderful OR Terrible to take a peek. It's too distracting for me! I DO however usually run around with a walkman or radio with earbuds in!

Sept 11, 2001- I had the walkman with me, earbuds in BUT NOT Turned on!

I got up at 10AM ad left the house at around 10:28A or so, rushing down the street. I see a beautiful blue sky and happy (not rain type) sumer cloud ahead of me in the distance, peeking over local buildings.

Suddenly I switch my AM news station and 3 newspeople are talking about firefighters covered in ash, and it looks like a movie but it ISN'T. They in the midst of their intensity DO NOT SAY What or Where this is happening! I get a vision of a particular type of massive Queens apt Complex.

I am going at right angles to my home street. AS I cross the street to go towards the subway station the broadcasters turn silent .I hit he block and am now in the same direction I was as I left my Apt building ( this is very important) .

One man suddenly comes back on after ?20 plus seconds in radio silence (real "Dead Air" as it is called ) and says "The Towers are GONE".

I stop dead in my racks as I start to only semi-consciously put 2 +2+ 2 together. I remember I AM now again facing Lower Manhattan as I was when I first left the house.The light-bulb then goes on over my head!
I squint at that "happy summer cloud" and realized it DOESN'T HAVE the Correct Colors and Shadows for THIS time of day! It is lightish yellow-beige-gray. AND it looks more dense, more rough than a normal cloud should be!

It all gets put togther in one terrifying second that I AM looking at the cloud of death and destruction of The Towers . I run back home screaming. ANd so now I joined the agony of the day & days ahead here in my NYC.

i can't believe this is an issue. it's embarrassing.

as ever, the Republicans are using hatred, fear, bigotry, and racism and opening their arms to the hateful, the fearful, the bigots, and the racists amongst us.

they want a clash of civilizations, they really, really do.

compared to Gingrich, Palin, et al, W Bush looks positively complex and nuanced.

a heh........

their ARE on BOTH Sides some Muslims and some Christians really do and they might take everyone else with them should it ever ( ) get into nuclear weapons

Really? You don't think the fact that Muslim is attached to it in anyway would be enough? Looking at your arguments, I think you've proved otherwise.

It's actually a community center with a place to pray, it is not a Mosque.

it doesn't help being mislabeled-- the man who's idea it was WANTED to have a center as a contribution to the LM community . He also helped on the day of 9-11 ad afterwards!

This is the question I always ask. I guess the only possible answer would be fear of some kind, but really, what exactly are you afraid will happen? I just don't understand how someone can allow fear and ignorance to run their lives. And those who don't live anywhere near New York City, I really don't understand the issues they have with this. You don't live there, what the hell do you care?

Also, believe it or not, there are people who were personally affected by 9/11 who don't have an ax to grind with the Muslim community as a whole. Not everyone who experiences a horrific event up close and personal wants retaliation and revenge, so you can't exactly use that as a reason, either. Muslims lost loved ones that day, too, for crying out loud!


(And aren't we already sort of friends with Saudi Arabia? You know, 'cause of the oil we get from them and everything? So, um, yeah. And isn't the fact that they won't build a church in their country but we'll allow a mosque in ours the reason why we're better than them, supposedly, why America's "#1!"?)

to the rest of what you said, too, by the way.

Angela

I feel NO one ELSE but NYC'r have the right to make the say. And the Constitution gives them the right to build it.
ugh have to leave here... will finish more replies to post at home!

 

[nathan1977]

Needless fear mongering based on the mistaken belief that Muslims erect these mosques in the hopes of turning the United States into a Muslim nation that holds Sharia law as the law of the land.

The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

Just ask Aisha Duhulowa.

 

[The_Pac_Mule]

I think my post was kind of misinterpretted.

Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.

I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.

Shall I assume then that every Catholic supports child molestation? I mean, surely you would think more Catholics would be speaking out against the priest scandal, right, but since they aren't doing so in loud, vocal terms, well... Or hey, I could stereotype all conservatives based on the Palins and Becks of the world, too, they're not speaking up enough against those people's actions and words, so naturally they must agree with them.

A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.

No. You do not judge an entire group based on the actions of some. The nutcases always make the news. If somebody watching can't differentiate between those idiots burning American symbols and the majority of peaceful, decent Muslims, then that's their problem to deal with, not mine or anyone else's.

That was the point I was trying to make.

You kinda missed my point, which is you just seem very unaware that there are at least two sides to the story.

What is your exposure to Middle-Eastern Muslims?

Oh I know, I was just making the point that most people don't hear the other side of the story. And as for exposure to the Middle East, I have none, but around this time next year I will have a hell of a lot more.

 

[maycocksean]

The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this.

I hadn't heard anything about this? I had always understood Europe to be pretty secular. Do you have some examples?

 

[BoMac]

I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.



A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.

Espousing stereotypes of any kind, and whether you think of it first or not when discussing a group of people, is a slippery slope.

As someone with Italian heritage, I cannot tell you how many people assume I'm mobbed up, or at the very least am connected in some way to the Mafia. I'm very serious. I kid you not, and I have heard it directly from people's mouths.

And it is infuriating. So I can only imagine how innocent Muslims feel about being lumped in with the tiny minority who use their religion to inflict harm on others.

 

[BVS]

The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

Just ask Aisha Duhulowa.

I don't know how much Sharia law is being integrated, but I would like to do some more research.

But I was talking to a Muslim friend of mine over the weekend, he's what many would consider a "liberal" Muslim, like I would be considered a "liberal" Christian. And like myself he finds no contradictions in his stances.

He summed it up like this: Let's forget about the whole concept of separation of church and state for a second. If someone told you they wanted more Biblical law introduced in your country there would be question as to what that meant. Some would think Leviticus, some would think eye for an eye, some would think more along the lines of forgiveness. Well these same debates apply to our religion, so if these debates apply within our religion it's not a shock to think that an outsider would be confused. As an outsider with only access to single lines taken here and there I would think the Bible condoned stoning a woman who commited adultery, but not a man.

"Sharia" really only stands for justice, but what equals "justice" is up to interpretation; in the Muslim religion, the Jewish religion, the Christian religion and the secular world.

He often doesn't like to talk religion, but I found the discussion very eye opening and honestly wish I could have recorded it because I think the world needs to hear it, he just put it in a way that isn't being expressed enough out there.

 

[dazzledbylight]

I am reposting my what I posted before anding the rest of my expereince AND then commenting on some of the other posts.

So here's another New York Ctiy'er weighing in.
First here was my 9-11 experience ( some of you might have read my annual or so post on this)

I don't listen/watch TV in the morning UNLESS I know in advance about something extraordinarily Wonderful OR Terrible to take a peek. It's too distracting for me! I DO however usually run around with a walkman or radio with earbuds in!

On Sept 11, 2001- I had the walkman with me, earbuds in BUT NOT Turned on!

I got up at 10AM ad left the house at around 10:28A or so, rushing down the street. I see a beautiful blue sky and happy (not rain type) sumer cloud ahead of me in the distance, peeking over local buildings.

Suddenly I switch my AM news station and 3 newspeople are talking about firefighters covered in ash, and it looks like a movie but it ISN'T. They in the midst of their intensity DO NOT IDENTIFY What or Where this is happening! I get a vision of a particular type of massive Queens apt Complex.

I am going at right angles to my home street. AS I cross the street to go towards the subway station the broadcasters turn silent .I hit he block, and am now in the same direction I was as I left my Apt building (this is very important) .

and know that in NYC after a bunch of years after the towers wre completed that the phrases "The Towers" The Twin Towers" came to mean only one place: The WTC.

One man suddenly comes back on after ?20 plus seconds in radio silence (real "Dead Air" as it is called ) and says "The Towers are GONE".

I stop dead in my tracks. Then I spin around 90 degrees facing the the other side of the street, holding my radio which to me on an emotional level has JUST METAMORPHASIZED into a Squarking Monster spewing UNBELEIVABLE Verbal Poison at me! ( Amazing i didn't drop it)

I start to only semi-consciously put 2 +2+ 2 together. I terribly begin to turn back around to the direction i was heading in. Now I AM again facing Lower Manhattan as I was when I first left the house.The light-bulb then fully goes on over my head!

I squint at that "happy summer cloud" and realized it DOESN'T HAVE the Correct Colors and Shadows for THIS time of day! It is lightish yellow-beige-gray. AND it looks more dense, more rough than a normal cloud should be!

It finally all gets put togther in one terrifying micro-second that I AM looking at the cloud of death and destruction of The Towers. I do not even know YET that it was a terrorist attck. All I know is my beautiful Towers have been destroyed, and obviously there were probably many deaths involved!

I run back home screaming....along the way finding out about the 2 planes and the Pentigon attack!

ANd so now I joined the agony of the day & days ahead here in my NYC.
-------------------------------------------------------
NOW continuing my 9-11 experiecnes

The cloud eventually rose high enough and was blown over my (then) Brooklyn neighborhood (among some others) and i stayed inside. After the cloud had dissapted I spent time in my next door neigborhood finding out where to bring stuff tohelp the resuce teams, praying in churhes, and writing stuff and banners supplied outside some places and churhes.

I don't think i was able to go back into Manahttan right away the subways across the Manahttan Bridge, and maybe the Bronx and Queens too, were cut off. AND I spent 4 days before i could get to a internet cafe/ library that worked becuase the Net Lines were cut over in Lower Manhattan and THAT efected the area in Brooklynn iwas in...to contact all my On-line friends, and aquaintices - who were waiting to find out what happened to me! SOme knrw I had worked in the general area.

I also spents hours for days at the biggest (and getting bigger and bigger) of the Impromtu Memorials (EVERYWHERE around The 5 Burroughs of NYC) - which was at Union Square, just across(above) the dividing line where people could not go (except for people who lived there or who were helping) below 14th street!

When I was able to start going back to Lower Manhattan... well, uuuugh... the Stench of Death & Destruction coming out of The Pit and area of the WTC .... you could smell the burnt metal, you could smell the brunt plastic AND THAT WAS BAD Enough BUT...you could also smell because it just didn't quite smell likeONLY metal and plastic.... something ELSE- the burnt, pulverized bits of human flesh.
And as soon as the subway car opened it's doors Underground there it was for x weeks.

finally for myself and my circle of family and friends-- we were VERY BLESSED....
one friend who would have been dead period- got fired from the ?104th floor of the North Tower 2 weeks earlier! Another had stoppeed to pick up his glasses outside of the WTC complex instead of going in.
The less probable but still possible were my mom's favorite cousin whom we loved too, had had serious dealings realated to The Towers for months.

She was more than less done, but it's possible she could have been called back in and on THAT day...which had she been injured or killed....might have sent my mom into some kind of physcially debilitating shock reaction or death. Which would torn our lives apart.

Over the years Thankfully as I 've learned about grief process /the pain has lessened in frequency and intenstity - normally. But there are times it can get pretty intense for brief periods especially around 9-11.

Oh, and I worked there back in the early 80'S for a year on the 73rd floor big north-east corner office. The view was Incredidible! I came to love the towers because their simplicity actually reflected the colors and also images in the windows of the sky and clouds . I miss them.

IN fact I think some part of my mind protected me,, b/c it was ONLY a few years ago ( vs all the way back ) - that I was looking at the South Tower's explosion from the plane hit-- and realized that that nice corner office i just wrote about and whom moved out f the Tower decdes back..... well THAT was in the middle section OF that explosion! Thank the powers I did NOT have a PTSD issue when i realized that!

So to all those right wing people like Rush, Savage, Beck, Palin, etc. :
I WILL NEVER, EVER forget what happnened to my city , MY New Yorkers, and the other visitors etc who died, were injuried /or emoionally traumatized. EVER!!! GOT IT ??!!

While I find a lot of that article to be extremely biased and sensationalized, I can genuinely understand being concerned about where the funding is coming from. However, (and I'm not saying you're a part of this, Pearl), I find it highly hypocritical that people get all up in arms about funding for a Muslim community center but don't even bat an eye at funding for other organizations, like Citibank and even the right's beloved Fox News, whose second largest shareholder is Prince Al-Waleed bin Talal (a family friend of the Bush family, btw), the very same man who Fox is trying to paint as the leader of a nefarious organization with ties to terrorism, all while conveniently omitting his name or picture.

heh... yeah really, that took the cake when i heard THAT a Few days ago!

That was a hate crime. Would it even be questioned if it was done to any other minority?

I was planing a trip to NYC. I have since, changed my mind. The Big Apple, the city that has always boasted to the rest of us. We are so metropolitian and melting pot of the world. Has given me, a bad taste in my mouth.

Folks had no problem, boycotting Arizona. How would New York, like the same?

1> abolute hate crime for sure. I was yelling when i heard abou that!

2> while you decided boycotting was not so much the way to go.....
...I hope you are re-reconsidering visiting my city!
One of the most beautiful places (if you are not an aetheist who refuses to set foot in whatever houses opf worship even to admire the architecture< i don't know your thots on that>) is St John The Divine's Gothic Cathedral of the Protestant Church. AMAZING!

ANd at the special Holidays Masses and certain other special Masses they include a Rabbi, an Iman, Native Amercians and African Indigenous Religious Holy Poeple and Dancers as well. Aalso a very cool Folk-Italian group who honor the Black Madonna, I beleive.

My NYC trip is booked for October. I'll be staying with friends only a few blocks up the street from the madness actually.

Welcome to my city, AE!
There is a very beautiful place you will ALSO be not far from...TheWorld Financial Center and its parks above them, the wonderful North Cove and Plaza along with The Palm Court inside and the Glass structure above the court ( that miraculously thouh some of it was perforated during the attrocity...the main window entracnce that faced westward towards NJ did not get damaged! it took a year or more to fix it up) and the Esplanade that goes South of the WFC, and leads to more parks southward is a treasured place by most NYC'rs and visitors love it too!
I highly reccomend it! I go there alot !

I think some so badly want this to be a holy war.

i said so in the earlier post buy yeah
there are some people on both sides who would try to instigate one. Life forbid-- it starts to get to the nuclear weapons stage!

and you lost someone? I anm so sorry.

Military Religious Freedom Foundation | The Constitutional Conscience of the United States Military

The nonprofit MRFF is raising money to buy a Qur'an to replace each one that is burned at the Dove World Outreach Center this weekend. The Qur'an books will be donated to the Afghan National Army as a gesture of goodwill to counter this ridiculous protest.

I certainly believe they have a right to burn whatever they want, just as I believe that the Islamic community center can be built near the World Trade Center site. I just hope the worldwide media will show that the U.S. is a diverse and mostly tolerant place. It probably won't though.

that is a wonderful thing to know! I hadn't heard about that and I listen to real liberal talk radio. i could have missed it being mentioned, tho!

Yeah it does, but that's the Old Testament. The New Testament is different from that.

But then again, that's a whole other topic. Not that I want to get off of it, I just don't want to derail the thread.

And besides, what does one have to do with the other?

Pearl... Hello - my fellow NYC'r
What we do is have to fight those fears that would have us scapegoat where there shoiuldn't be any. And I'm sure someone will be keeping an eye onthe place.
ANd besides and BVS has said it is a Cultural Center first. It's to show the moderate side of Islam and provide some nice services for the general Lower Manahttan Comunity.

Well, I suspect that it has less to do with the actual religion and more with the dominant culture present in some countries that precludes people from accepting criticism. Note that throughout this whole burning the Qu'ran episode, Muslims in places like the U.S. Canada, France, the U.K. and elsewhere didn't start protesting violently.

True, but my guess is because Muslims living in the West are in countries where criticism of any religion is OK, and they've grown up in such a place, so they're probably used to criticism of Islam.

Other countries like Afghanistan have had theocracy and Islam dominating their culture for so many centuries, so perhaps that influenced their violent protests.

both your statements make sense to me.

Its because the extremists speak a lot louder than everyday muslims.

This is what sticks with me, and many others.

A LOT of people hate us in the Middle East, and sincerly wish us harm.
That's why it's hard for some people to understand.

it IS true sdome do want to harm us. but it's some, not a majority. Someties the US gets scapegoated b/c of the individual countries goverments to divert peoiple who have various problems with their governement.

I consider myself VERY LUCKY that after ( good ghads) reading the Illusrtrated Comics version of The Crusades when i was ? 10 or so......and for some other resons of things I had heard about other situaions I

1> rejected Religious Fundamentalists of ALL religions

2> over years got exposed to varous postives aspects of Islam.
The Sufi's - the Mystical WIng of Islam, beautiful deviotional poems, peaceful etc The beauty of Islamic Archtiecture and Design I found in one of our big Museums.

Muslims I met at various points in my later life.....good, helpul people. That's how I learned more about Ramadan and EId al Ftir ?<sp> the breaking of the 30 day day fast and the days of giving money and goods away to needy people and lots of Arab Muslim shopkeepers where i was living at the time.

SO I had postive experiences with Muslims that countered like 99% of possilbe fears. Yeah there's that 1% that sometimes about this and that.....but i counter it and that's been that.

Bingo. I've seen those images, too, The_Pac_Mule, and that's not what sticks with me. That's not the first thing I think of when I think of Muslims.

Angela

thank you!

oh and after all that in case it's not obvious Yes I do support the Islamic Community Cetner with the prayer room right were it has originally been proposed.

wow what loooooooooooooooong post! LOL

i hope it's somewhat insightful to hear another NYC'rs expereicnes. Thanks !

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

I've got no problem with hearing from another New Yorker's perspective. Excellent post, I could not agree with you more. Thanks for sharing your story regarding 9/11, too-so glad that you weren't among the hurt that day and that most of the people you know managed to escape certain injury and death. Way to stick it to the people who keep exploiting the tragedy. No duh you're not going to forget. I feel really bad for victims of that day, I truly do. The politicians and media who keep using this for their own gain should be ashamed of themselves.

I was fortunate enough to go to New York City when the towers were still there. I can look at the pictures and be reminded of a more pleasant, peaceful time. It's a very surreal image to look at, though, it really is. I'd love to return to that city someday, either for a visit or, should I ever magically have the sort of financial comfort where I could do so, to live there, 'cause I greatly enjoyed my time there. It's a lovely place, so much to do and see.

BVS, your friend makes a fantastic point, that's very well put. And that's the thing that kills me about this-we get so up in arms at the thought of somebody possibly introducing Islamic beliefs into our culture and presume that means they want us all to convert to Islam, regardless of whether that's actually true or not. But then a lot of those same people turn around and see nothing wrong with trying to convert everyone to Christianity, trying to put Christian beliefs into our government and our schools and so on. "Christian nation, founded by religious people, God gave us the Constitution, yada, yada, yada". Very confusing. And besides that, even if this was intended to push Islamic ideals, does anyone honestly think the majority of Americans would suddenly start turning to that belief system? I'm guessing no.

I wasn't saying thats the first thing that comes to mind when I think of Islam. But it is something I think of.

I'm sorry if that's the case for you. It sucks that those people are held up in the media as examples of Islam, that desperately needs to stop.

A lot of people do stereotype those groups of people as well.

Yes, but it doesn't seem it's to the extent that it is with Islam right now (well, maybe the attacks on conservative mindsets come close, as there have been violent outbursts towards a few people in that group, too). There's no mass rallies trying to burn Bibles or vandalize Catholic churches. If a Catholic church were to be built near a school, would we see the kind of protest for that that we are for this center near Ground Zero?

That was the point I was trying to make.

My apologies if I misunderstood you, then, as it seems I have . I'm glad we're in agreement on this fact .

Angela

 

[dazzledbylight]

Moonlit Angel

thank you for your kind repsonse.....

i had the most Wonderful photographs that accidenly got desposed of ( I DID NOT know they were in a particular box) that I took over about 6 months time out of the north and east windows of that South Tower Office!
I was docmenting the weather changes, the changes of light during the day and the changing seasons.

It was like being on a little mountain up there. I had been on moutians too, in the Rockies, NYS, VT, NH and Mesas in the High Desert of Arizona! On more windyish days you could SEE the clouds' shadows moving across the lower built sections of Manhattan The Village and parts of Chelsea!!

I never despite my photography passion ...took pics of the outside of the towers looking up! STOOOPID!
I do have vivid memories augmented by other's photography!

OH it IS surreal at times to look at photos of the towers

There are still times when I "expect" when I'm down in that area esp on a goregeous day.... that that section of the sky will "peel away" and the Towers will be re-revealed in their glory again! oh, well........

So, yes, it remains a surreal feeling at times!

I hope you'll get a chance to visit again. I'm glad you enjoyed your time here!

 

[Moonlit_Angel]

Moonlit Angel

thank you for your kind repsonse.....

i had the most Wonderful photographs that accidenly got desposed of ( I DID NOT know they were in a particular box) that I took over about 6 months time out of the north and east windows of that South Tower Office!
I was docmenting the weather changes, the changes of light during the day and the changing seasons.

It was like being on a little mountain up there. I had been on moutians too, in the Rockies, NYS, VT, NH and Mesas in the High Desert of Arizona! On more windyish days you could SEE the clouds' shadows moving across the lower built sections of Manhattan The Village and parts of Chelsea!!

You're welcome, and that sounds awesome. It's a shame about that box of photographs, those sound like they would've been lovely to see. I'm sorry they disappeared on you .

I know what the image of seeing clouds move along mountains looks like, having lived in the Rockies for a time. It's indeed a gorgeous, amazing sight. Didn't get lucky enough to see that in New York City when I was out there, but we did get to see a good view of the city from one of the higher floors of the Empire State Building, as evening fell. It was pretty cool.

I never despite my photography passion ...took pics of the outside of the towers looking up! STOOOPID!
I do have vivid memories augmented by other's photography!

Good, at least there's that. You just always probably thought, "Well, maybe next time", you don't realize... But as long as the memory remains in some form, that's worth holding on to.

OH it IS surreal at times to look at photos of the towers

There are still times when I "expect" when I'm down in that area esp on a goregeous day.... that that section of the sky will "peel away" and the Towers will be re-revealed in their glory again! oh, well........

So, yes, it remains a surreal feeling at times!

I imagine so. It's not surprising to hear you keep expecting one day to see them again, as if the last 9 years were nothing but a really, really bad dream. If only they had been .

I hope you'll get a chance to visit again. I'm glad you enjoyed your time here!

I did . It was brief, but fun. I'll certainly try and work on that. If I ever do get lucky enough to go, I'd love to meet up with any of you who live in that area .

Angela

 

[nathan1977]

I hadn't heard anything about this? I had always understood Europe to be pretty secular. Do you have some examples?

The introduction of Sharia law into both European and UK laws is well-documented and easily researchable -- there was a huge to-do in the UK when it started happening in 2007-2008. An archbishop in the UK stirred up controversy when he called it "inevitable" in 2007, but nine months later it was reality.

The issue isn't whether or not Sharia law should be recognized as a matter of principle -- there are Jewish courts that function in a similar capacity. The issue is whether those aspects of Sharia law, particularly in regards to family and domestic laws (wife-beating, divorce, etc), that are in contradiction with established UK law should become the law of the land. Because encoded in Sharia law is the fact that no other laws can take precedence -- which is an understandable issue for contention.

 

[maycocksean]

The introduction of Sharia law into both European and UK laws is well-documented and easily researchable -- there was a huge to-do in the UK when it started happening in 2007-2008. An archbishop in the UK stirred up controversy when he called it "inevitable" in 2007, but nine months later it was reality.

The issue isn't whether or not Sharia law should be recognized as a matter of principle -- there are Jewish courts that function in a similar capacity. The issue is whether those aspects of Sharia law, particularly in regards to family and domestic laws (wife-beating, divorce, etc), that are in contradiction with established UK law should become the law of the land. Because encoded in Sharia law is the fact that no other laws can take precedence -- which is an understandable issue for contention.

Not to be snarky or anything--you are, after all, one of my favorite posters so please don't take offense. But it seems to be the onus is on you to prove your statement rather than on me to go out and find evidence to contradict it. If I understand you correctly you're saying that European nations have allowed Sharia "courts" if you will to exist parallel to the secular courts? In other words religious matters can be resolved within the religion? Or are you saying that the laws that affect all citizens of the country are now informed by Sharia principles/beliefs. And what has been the result when Sharia and UK law have been in contradiction?

As a Christian, don't you believe that God's law supersedes any law of the land that contradicts it? I'm sure you're familiar with the passage, "We ought to obey God rather than man." (And just so A_Wanderer doesn't fall out with a heart attack from disgust at such a concept, isn't it really true that even the non-religious person believes that there may be times when the law of their conscience supersedes the law of the land?). Isn't the real issue specific Sharia laws--or more accurately their interpretation--rather than the general principle of a religous law superseding the law of the land in the minds of believers.
Remember there are more than a few Christians that interpret New Testament Scriptures in a way that can be viewed as sexist and demeaning to woemn.

Finally, I don't know about the UK but at least some other European countries don't seem to be exactly primed to embrace Islam. Isn't it France that just banned wearing the head scarf for women?

 

[deep]

Cartoonist Molly Norris in hiding after 'Everybody Draw Mohammed Day' picture | Mail Online


Am I supposed to feel bad for her?

 

[Bonoa]

I don't think this qualifies as hate speech.

The message is still clear: no equal rights for Muslims, ALL Muslims hate the West and ALL Muslims want the Shari'a as the Western system of justice, although it is slightly hidden by the kind words for the victims of 9/11. He throws oil on the fire of conservative xenophobes.

The speech is done by the same man who compares the Qur'an with Mein Kampf and calls the Islam fascist.
His one of his intentions to come to New York was to join the Qur'an burnings.

What part of the speech seethes with hatred, in your opinion?

Read very well.

 

[dazzledbylight]

Y

I know what the image of seeing clouds move along mountains looks like, having lived in the Rockies for a time. It's indeed a gorgeous, amazing sight. Didn't get lucky enough to see that in New York City when I was out there, but we did get to see a good view of the city from one of the higher floors of the Empire State Building, as evening fell. It was pretty cool.



Good, at least there's that. You just always probably thought, "Well, maybe next time", you don't realize... But as long as the memory remains in some form, that's worth holding on to.


I did . It was brief, but fun. I'll certainly try and work on that. If I ever do get lucky enough to go, I'd love to meet up with any of you who live in that area .

Angela

ah glsd you got up into the Empire state building... it's an amzing view.

AH! The Rockies!

my cousin took me up into the Rockies ( out from Denver) on a motorcycle! We reachedEcho lake about 10, 000 FT.


AND we stopped at Red Rocks ! ( 2 years to early!)

if we are still in touch on this site or however I am happy to meet up withmy Interland friends and aquaintences and show them Mah Homwtown

 

[Vincent Vega]

The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

I think you misunderstood something there. The Archbishop of Canterbury made comments suggesting such a thing, but no country in Europe has or is going to integrate Sharia law into domestic law, least any laws that'd go against human rights, equality etc.

The message is still clear: no equal rights for Muslims, ALL Muslims hate the West and ALL Muslims want the Shari'a as the Western system of justice, although it is slightly hidden by the kind words for the victims of 9/11. He throws oil on the fire of conservative xenophobes.

The speech is done by the same man who compares the Qur'an with Mein Kampf and calls the Islam fascist.
His one of his intentions to come to New York was to join the Qur'an burnings.

As a European he knows very well what he can say and how he can say it without getting into legal trouble easily. It's one of the side-effects of certain laws regarding speech, which have taught those on the very far right how to guise their hatred in this "silky" speech.

 

[Bonoa]

As a European he knows very well what he can say and how he can say it without getting into legal trouble easily. It's one of the side-effects of certain laws regarding speech, which have taught those on the very far right how to guise their hatred in this "silky" speech.

True. You can't win people over with direct hate speech like swearing, racist comments etc. Politicians like Wilders are too smart. They want people to say things like:

The steady integration of Sharia law into European laws would seem to contradict this. Even UK officials are struggling with which laws become the law of the land. And some of the fundamental principles of Sharia law, at least in regards to the subjugation of women and their application throughout the world, bear serious consideration.

(The steady integration of Sharia in European laws? Man, you just got so Pwned!)