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Old 06-29-2009, 03:17 AM   #1
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Honduras: Democratically elected president overthrown

Today our president was overthrown, taken out of his home by force in the wee hours of the morning and thrown into exile in Costa Rica.

The coup perpetrated against Zelaya was a slap in the face to all those who want to believe in a democracy and in anything resembling constitutional order. Not only did they produce a resignation letter that was made to appear to have been signed and created by Zelaya but they didn't even use it as a basis for the impeachment rendering the very move pointless.

Granted, Zelaya had some obscure and unknown plans laid out in the country's future but they should've followed due process in order to take him out of the presidency. What ocurred today was a violation to all our laws and our constitutional system and all those who were behind it deserve to be punished.

The majority of the upper class, which are the ones who have internet access, have stormed online media claiming happiness over this infamous act of high treason but the other part of the country still believes that our democracy was made a fool on this sad sad day for Honduras democracy.
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Old 06-29-2009, 07:19 AM   #2
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I'd be curious as to what you thought of this:

Quote:
Zelaya, a leftist elected in 2005, suddenly found himself pitted against the other branches of government and military leaders over the issue of the referendum.

The referendum at the center of the storm asks voters to place a measure on November's ballot that would allow the formation of a constitutional assembly that could modify the nation's charter to allow the president to run for another term.

Zelaya, whose four-year term ends in January 2010, cannot run for re-election.

The Hondurans Supreme Court had ruled the referendum illegal, and Congress and the top military brass agreed, but Zelaya remained steadfast.
I guess I was intrigued by what looks like the President appearing to "subvert" democracy and the separation of powers himself before being deposed? I'd be interested in your take on the situation.
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Old 06-29-2009, 11:20 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
I guess I was intrigued by what looks like the President appearing to "subvert" democracy and the separation of powers himself before being deposed? I'd be interested in your take on the situation.
Sounds like Chavez.
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Old 06-29-2009, 01:55 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
I'd be curious as to what you thought of this:



I guess I was intrigued by what looks like the President appearing to "subvert" democracy and the separation of powers himself before being deposed? I'd be interested in your take on the situation.
The fact that Zelaya had been left alone and had been supported by practically no one in the government made me start listening to the guy although not support him wholeheartedly. You see, our government is a deeply corrupt one where legislators create laws to benefit their personal enterprises. Zelaya denounced many of these things which is why he was left alone by many of our politicians. The problem was his close relationship with Chavez made you kind of wonder what his true intentions were. But the new government is the same corrupt government we've always had and the reason they overthrew him was because they were defending their own personal economical interests.
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Old 06-30-2009, 01:43 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by BrownEyedBoy View Post
Granted, Zelaya had some obscure and unknown plans laid out in the country's future but they should've followed due process in order to take him out of the presidency.
What would "due process" have looked like in this case? (Other than "Not a coup"--that much I get. ) Because, at least as I understand it, your Constitution isn't very clear at all on what, in fact, the proper procedure for "taking out" a sitting president is.

Also, concerning those "obscure and unknown plans": what exactly is the basis of the claim that Zelaya's referendum was intended to bring about revision of the Constitutional provisions on term limits? I've read a little bit about the referendum--the 'Cuarta Urna' thing and all that--and I still haven't seen a clear explanation of what the 'proof' for that claim is.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:56 AM   #6
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To me it sounds like the people with money and power did not want this guy to institute any leftist reforms.
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Old 06-30-2009, 04:33 AM   #7
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To me it sounds like the people with money and power did not want this guy to institute any leftist reforms.
That is exactly what happened. I'll elaborate on this tomorrow. But, yeah, that is exactly what happened. These are also the same people who control the country's energy supply through a dodgy contract with the corrupt government. These are also the same people who cut the power all through sunday morning.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:40 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Also, concerning those "obscure and unknown plans": what exactly is the basis of the claim that Zelaya's referendum was intended to bring about revision of the Constitutional provisions on term limits? I've read a little bit about the referendum--the 'Cuarta Urna' thing and all that--and I still haven't seen a clear explanation of what the 'proof' for that claim is.
I think this is the part of the constitution that's being fought over:

http://www.honduras.net/honduras_constitution2.html

Quote:
ARTICULO 239.- El ciudadano que haya desempeñado la titularidad del Poder Ejecutivo no podrá ser Presidente o Designado.


El que quebrante esta disposición o proponga su reforma, así como aquellos que lo apoyen directa o indirectamente, cesarán de inmediato en el desempeño de sus respectivos cargos, y quedarán inhabilitados por diez años para el ejercicio de toda función pública.
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I ARTICULATE 239.- The citizen that have performed the ownership of the Executive Power will not be able to be a President or Appointed.

The one that break this disposition or propose their reform, as well as those that support the direct or indirectly, they will cease immediately in the performance of their respective charges, and they will remain disqualified by ten years for the exercise of every civil service.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:02 PM   #9
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Thing is, purpleoscar, they never followedt the actual process that would impeach him. They took the man out of his home at 3 am in the morning by force and took him to Costa Rica. He wasn't the most loved man in the country. I never supported him. But that foolish foolish coup d'etat made a mediocre politician an international democratic figure. That is what I condemn and will never ever condone.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:02 PM   #10
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I think this is the part of the constitution that's being fought over:
I know that; I'm asking what the evidence that Zelaya actually did this was. The wording of his referendum said nothing about term limits, and if he himself ever publically stated that was its purpose, I've seen no report of that either. Of course this doesn't prove that wasn't his goal (or one of his goals) but you'd think, given the consequences here, that some hard evidence must have existed.

Seems to me a bad idea for the constitution of a democracy to have such stringent punishments for merely advocating a revision of term limits (apparently any Honduran can lose their citizenship for doing so, not just the President). I assume this is meant to guard against dictatorship, but going that far pretty much guarantees that no one who actually intends to revise term limits will admit to it--and also that anyone who opposes a constitutional assembly, for whatever reason, will be tempted to level allegations of "They just want to extend term limits" at its proposers, so as to shut it down.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:09 PM   #11
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I know that; I'm asking what the evidence that Zelaya actually did this was .
Evidence is a funny thing.

Zelaya says he just thought it might be a good idea to get a little survey of what the citizens think.


and his enemies say 'his intent' was to change the constitution.
They rush to a judgment, and claim they are acting within the law.
The parties behind the coup, point to the Judges for legitimacy.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:26 PM   #12
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If they had had evidence they would simply followd through the judicial system, which was the right thing to do. But they bypassed the whole thing and did what they thought best for their little money making maching called Honduras.
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Old 06-30-2009, 02:46 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by BrownEyedBoy View Post
Thing is, purpleoscar, they never followedt the actual process that would impeach him. They took the man out of his home at 3 am in the morning by force and took him to Costa Rica. He wasn't the most loved man in the country. I never supported him. But that foolish foolish coup d'etat made a mediocre politician an international democratic figure. That is what I condemn and will never ever condone.
Yes and that's probably the point that Chavez and his supporters want. I'm not for military dictatorship but there's definately left-wing special interests involved. It's possible to elect people who want to stay and stay and stay and copy the successful moves of Chavez. It's possible to have corruption on both sides.

What's your opinion on this article?:

O'Grady: Honduras Defends Its Democracy - WSJ.com

Quote:
That Mr. Zelaya acted as if he were above the law, there is no doubt. While Honduran law allows for a constitutional rewrite, the power to open that door does not lie with the president. A constituent assembly can only be called through a national referendum approved by its Congress.

But Mr. Zelaya declared the vote on his own and had Mr. Chávez ship him the necessary ballots from Venezuela. The Supreme Court ruled his referendum unconstitutional, and it instructed the military not to carry out the logistics of the vote as it normally would do.
Is there any validity to this?
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:25 PM   #14
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purpleoscar, this is a deeply corrupt government that has turned on itself. There will be a lot of finger-pointing going onin the next few days and don't be surprised, everyone here was involved. What happened today was one side of the government overthew the other side. First time ever it happens and it just had to be my country. Zelaya was corrupt but so are the people who overthrew him except that with this coup they managed to give Zelaya the moral and legal high ground which he did not have before.
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Old 06-30-2009, 03:32 PM   #15
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Is there any validity to this?
Zelaya is a leftist

of course the Wall Street Journal is going to take the conservative, pro-multi-national business arguments and frame it that way.

It seems to me that if Zelaya had his vote and the people, by a good majority supported changing the constitution, then the legislative body would have been backed into a corner and required to proceed and do it the correct way,
as called for in the constitution or risk being voted out of office.

The coup was a preventive strike,
because they did not want to know the will of the people.
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