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Old 07-05-2009, 11:24 AM   #31
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You see, our government is a deeply corrupt one where legislators create laws to benefit their personal enterprises. But the new government is the same corrupt government we've always had......

Are you sure you don't live in America


LOL
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:18 PM   #32
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So what is Obama doing anyway? just playing the democrat? He is condemning the coup but the US has a military base(bases) in honduras and if i am not miskaten they see the country as an strategic location right? So i don't think the idea of a populist president following Chavez ideals is something they want to deal with.
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:44 PM   #33
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^ Obama might in the longterm prove more reconcilable to the prospect of Zelaya's continued exile (or arrest and prosecution upon return) than his public statements have suggested, but no, I don't think there's good reason to assume his condemnation of the coup was merely an act. The US does still have troops stationed at Honduras' Soto Cano airbase, but at present their operations primarily concern the 'War on Drugs' (as opposed to the 1980s, when Central America policy was Cold War-driven and primarily about containing the Sandinistas, FMLN etc., typically with little concern over human rights violations in the process). While the former objective certainly doesn't rule out the latter--e.g., 'Plan Colombia' has involved some training of Colombian forces to fight FARC, ostensibly in the context of combatting drug trafficking--it's not like they're synonymous, either; so it's quite conceivable that Obama might wish to continue the 'special relationship' with the Honduran forces (for 'War on Drugs' purposes) without simultaneously being willing to give them a green-light to meddle in Honduras' political process in the name of resisting 'chavismo.'
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #34
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So, Zelaya said he would arrive today and a huge crowd gathered to receive him at the airport. Apparentyl, official sources say the crowd then began to jump the gates from the airport which prompted the army to open fire on the crowd. 3 dead have been reported only 1 confirmed.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:14 PM   #35
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There are also reports that Zelaya's plane was diverted to El Salvador as Honduran authorities refused permission to land.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:43 PM   #36
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Obama might in the longterm prove more reconcilable to the prospect of Zelaya's continued exile (or arrest and prosecution upon return) than his public statements have suggested, but no, I don't think there's good reason to assume his condemnation of the coup was merely an act. The US does still have troops stationed at Honduras' Soto Cano airbase, but at present their operations primarily concern the 'War on Drugs' (as opposed to the 1980s, when Central America policy was Cold War-driven and primarily about containing the Sandinistas, FMLN etc., typically with little concern over human rights violations in the process). While the former objective certainly doesn't rule out the latter--e.g., 'Plan Colombia' has involved some training of Colombian forces to fight FARC, ostensibly in the context of combatting drug trafficking--it's not like they're synonymous, either; so it's quite conceivable that Obama might wish to continue the 'special relationship' with the Honduran forces (for 'War on Drugs' purposes) without simultaneously being willing to give them a green-light to meddle in Honduras' political process in the name of resisting 'chavismo.'
I agree with that. They are basically playing both sides then, for now. Too bad the honduran government didn't seem to need any "green light" to oust the president after all.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:05 PM   #37
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U.S. Misread Scale of Honduran Rift

By William Booth and Juan Forero
Washington Post, July 5




When Zelaya, 56, a wealthy rancher whose family made its fortune from timber, was elected president in 2005, he was a middle-of-the-road populist from one of Honduras's two major parties. But as his presidency progressed, Zelaya veered to the left and was in constant conflict with business groups, lawmakers from his own party, the news media and the army. "Over the last year, Zelaya's positions moved to the left. He pushed social programs and more attention for the poor who have no work," said Giuseppe Magno, the outgoing Italian ambassador. "This switch was not in line with the program he was voted in on. He was too close to Ortega and Chávez, a position the middle and upper classes did not appreciate."

But Zelaya saw it differently, often telling crowds that Honduras needed a fundamental shift to deal with poverty so grinding that 40% of the population lives on $2 a day or less. Honduras is, in fact, the third-poorest country in the hemisphere, and many residents continue to resent the often painful past involvement of the United States.

In announcing his country's affiliation with a Chávez-led alliance, Zelaya told crowds that it was designed to "make Hondurans a free people." He said that in joining the pact, the Bolivarian Alternative for the Americas, Honduras did "not have to ask permission of any imperialists." Zelaya increasingly spoke of the two nations of Honduras, one hopelessly poor, the other wealthy and uncaring. He began to argue for "people power," a kind of direct popular democracy. When he toured the countryside, he staged rallies to ask the people what they wanted, and promised new bridges and clinics on the spot, giving away 100 Venezuelan tractors to farmers and speaking against an unnamed oligarchy he called the enemy of the people.

Zelaya angered the business community when he raised the minimum monthly wage for Hondurans by 60%. Many companies responded by firing workers. Other businesses ignored the decree.
This is one of those rare but not unheard of examples of someone who goes to the left as he gets older, isn't it?
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:39 PM   #38
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There are also reports that Zelaya's plane was diverted to El Salvador as Honduran authorities refused permission to land.
Not only did they refuse permission to land they also put military trucks and soldiers on the landing strip while Zelaya overflew the city trying to land. This is ridiculous.
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Old 07-08-2009, 07:05 AM   #39
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I can't really call it a coup.

Zelaya tried to circumvent the Honduran constitution to stay in power. The Supreme court ordered the military to throw him out.
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:20 PM   #40
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You've also got the conundrum of the fact that the referendum was illegal and if they allowed it to go ahead, those who wouldn't agree wouldn't vote so the referendum would end up being a landslide win for Zelaya. Then if they arrested him afterwards and threw him in jail or deposed him the left would have a referendum result they could use. The only way I would call it a coup is if they didn't allow the leading party to rule and didn't allow elections in November. THAT would be a coup.
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Old 07-10-2009, 02:49 AM   #41
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It is without a doubt and by all accounts a coup.

If he had been captured, tried and actually given due process then it wouldn't be a coup. But he wasn't. He was arbitrarily captured and taken by force to Costa Rica in his pajamas.
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Old 07-10-2009, 10:29 AM   #42
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It is without a doubt and by all accounts a coup.

If he had been captured, tried and actually given due process then it wouldn't be a coup. But he wasn't. He was arbitrarily captured and taken by force to Costa Rica in his pajamas.
By what definition? There are any number of definitions for a coup, but being taken out by the order of a Supreme Court for circumventing the Constitution isn't one of them.

The Honduran Congress is the only body that can rewrite your constitution. The Supreme Court ordered the military to throw the bum out. He broke the law.
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Old 07-10-2009, 11:36 AM   #43
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The Supreme Court didn't have the Constitutional authority to do that.
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Old 07-10-2009, 12:11 PM   #44
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The Supreme Court didn't have the Constitutional authority to do that.
Are you sure?

Who then has the authority to toss out a lawless leader?
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Old 07-10-2009, 01:05 PM   #45
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Their Supreme Court has the authority to strip any citizen of his or her citizenship for promoting revision of their Constitution's provisions on term limits--provided of course that said person is put on trial for that crime and shown at trial to have committed it. They didn't do this, probably because they in fact have no hard evidence that Zelaya was seeking to do so, only assumptions. Instead, he was arrested for defying their earlier order against carrying out his referendum calling for a popular vote in November on whether to hold a constitutional convention: they'd already ruled that referendum unconstitutional, on the grounds that it was a usurpation of Congress' sole authority to convene a constitutional convention. That much--the arrest and the earlier ruling--were almost certainly within the Court's authority. However, they then proceeded to order the Army to simply throw Zelaya out of the country, without first trying him for any crime punishable by that. They claimed at the time that they'd offered him the option of resigning and leaving the country rather than going on trial (he denies this), but they have no authority to make such an offer in the first place: could you imagine our government giving a President possibly guilty of impeachable crimes an option to just leave the country for good instead, to avoid being tried? This is why their actions have been roundly condemned by other governments around the world.
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