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Old 08-21-2012, 08:02 PM   #136
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Let me ask you Axver since you would know better than anyone, does Bono give this speech everywhere?


In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.

I originally only wanted to highlight that Ryan was echoing our favorite frontman but now I guess I'll have to go further.

What is that American idea? Well, let me finish and quote Paul Ryan's thought.


"Our rights come from nature and God, not government. We promise equal opportunity, not equal outcomes." Well, that's the "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights... statement in our Declaration of Independence. In other words, we are ruled not by a social hierarchy (the British monarchy) but by nature and consent of the governed.

Not founded on blood or soil but the creed that the individual's sovereignty be recognized, not the government's. Exceptional indeed.

As to Wakefieldianism, not claiming to know very much about New Zealand's political history but--America's first act as a country was to fire a king. Again from the Declaration of Independence.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the New Zealand idea, chiefly masterminded by Edward Gibbon Wakefield, was... let's join the British Empire.

We fired a king, you hired one. And I don't say that to disparage your country in anyway. I'd love to visit sometime and all the New Zealanders I've met, granted they're all race drivers, are great folks. You'll just have to be more specific about the New Zealand idea I guess.
Sheesh. Why the aggressive tone?
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:09 PM   #137
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I'll get back to that, Indy.

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Out of curiousity, if New Zealand was a British colony, why was it named after a Dutch area? Were the Dutch the first to discover it?
Yes, Abel Tasman was the first European to sight New Zealand in 1642. He named it Staten Landt, but Dutch cartographers renamed it Nova Zeelandia (off memory, only two names given by Tasman survive: Cape Maria van Diemen and the Three Kings Islands). He also named Australia "New Holland", but that didn't stick ... Van Diemen's Land for Tasmania lasted until the 19th century.

New Zealand was not again visited by Europeans until Captain Cook rocked up in 1769, and he Anglicised the name. Irregular European settlement followed slowly until the British government annexed the country in 1840, partly to beat the French to the punch and partly because the Wakefieldites had decided they'd just go ahead and found Wellington without waiting for the British parliament to give them permission.

It blew my mind when I was in Boston as a teenager and went to a park founded before anybody in Europe or North America knew my country existed. This was meant to be the New World! Felt positively ancient to me.

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lol, seriously. when i tell people my husband is from new zealand, you'd be amazed how many people then later (as in during the same conversation) don't even get the country name right. most think he's from nigeria. yep, he tried to pull that email scam telling me i was being given millions but i won his heart instead!

everyone else says whatever country they can think of beginning with an n, usually the netherlands. don't even get me started on where people guess it is on a map...
When I was in the US, I thought mentioning Lord of the Rings would do the trick. Initially it did. People were all "oh yeah, I've heard of there! Saw the movies!" Then I met one guy who gave me a blank stare on both counts. "You know, near Australia?" Blank stare continued. I gave up.

Another guy tried to convince me that New Zealand is north of Australia. I don't know if he was confusing New Zealand with New Guinea or if he was just dumb and couldn't fathom a colder country being to the south of a warmer one.

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Is it better than Old Zealand?
Haha, though seriously, when I was in the Netherlands, I meant to visit Zeeland. Unfortunately ran out of time.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:15 PM   #138
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I met a car museum owner in Sacramento who said "I forgot South Africa was even a county!"

He knew all about Australia though. He watched Sea Patrol religiously.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:50 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post

In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.
Is this a serious question?

Bono also regularly says "The world needs more Canadas" every time he is here. Does he say that everywhere else? Let me ask you, does that mean that the world needs fewer United States or fewer Japans or fewer Portugals?

You will also note that Ryan said that the US was the only country based on an idea. Which is not what I've heard Bono say.
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Old 08-21-2012, 08:56 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Axver View Post
Another guy tried to convince me that New Zealand is north of Australia. I don't know if he was confusing New Zealand with New Guinea or if he was just dumb and couldn't fathom a colder country being to the south of a warmer one.
I would have asked him if the word "Antarctica" meant anything to him to explain that, but somehow I doubt it...
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:01 PM   #141
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Thanks Axver and BoMac for researching!

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I was going to say, many Americans are lucky if they can find their own state on a map, let alone any other country.
Many Americans are lucky if they even know how many U.S. states there are.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #142
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Guys...guys. Have you considered maps for everyone as the solution to this problem?
what are you, some kind of socialist?

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Originally Posted by Axver View Post
When I was in the US, I thought mentioning Lord of the Rings would do the trick. Initially it did. People were all "oh yeah, I've heard of there! Saw the movies!"
Please tell me they did not go on to ask you about hobbits.
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Old 08-21-2012, 09:37 PM   #143
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Let me ask you Axver since you would know better than anyone, does Bono give this speech everywhere?
No.

Though he's not averse to sucking up to countries with other speeches.

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
In Auckland is it, "New Zealand is not just a country, it's an idea"? If not it seems like, to be consistent, you should mock Bono just as hard as Rep. Ryan.
You clearly haven't seen how harsh I've been on Bono elsewhere in the forum!

I don't take him particularly seriously, let's put it that way.

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Not founded on blood or soil but the creed that the individual's sovereignty be recognized, not the government's. Exceptional indeed.
I don't see how that's exceptional to the US.

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Originally Posted by =INDY500 View Post
As to Wakefieldianism, not claiming to know very much about New Zealand's political history
New Zealand historian here. G'day.

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Originally Posted by =INDY500 View Post
but--America's first act as a country was to fire a king. Again from the Declaration of Independence.
And how long was that after your first settlement was founded? If we're just going by your British heritage, then 1607. That's 169 years before the Declaration of Independence. What was the first act of those settlers? I'm not sure that fits in with your narrative. Took quite some time for your colonies to build up to the Declaration of Independence. By contrast, 169 years after formal settlement of New Zealand began in 1840 is 2009.

New Zealand lacks a discrete date of independence or a formal independence process, so we're going to have trouble if we're going to debate on the basis of expressing certain ideas at independence. What I was saying was that your country is not the only one underpinned by ideas, and that New Zealand's foundation and 19th century settlement was heavily motivated by certain ideas. If we're just going to stick to ideas put forth in a discrete official document, then I guess there's no debate to have, though I don't think that ideas are confined in such a way. New Zealand's progression to independent statehood was gradual. To clarify, the most common date given is 1907, so 67 years after 1840. Even the most ungenerous reading would give New Zealand as independent in 1947 (107 years). New Zealand was obviously not independent before 1856, when responsible government was granted, but I would suggest that New Zealand was de facto independent by at least the 1890s.

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Correct me if I'm wrong but the New Zealand idea, chiefly masterminded by Edward Gibbon Wakefield, was... let's join the British Empire.
Quite wrong. Given that Wellington was settled in defiance of the British parliament, Wakefield was not all too fussed about that sort of thing - he wanted to found his ideal society and if he had to go it alone, he would. Britain declaring a claim to New Zealand and founding an "official" settlement in Auckland was something of a pain in the arse to the early settlers. Wellington and Auckland have hated each other ever since. The Wakefield settlers expected the full political rights of Englishmen (along Chartist lines) and were livid to find they were now settling a crown colony with a nominated Governor.

The Wakefieldian idea of systematic colonisation emphasised the independence of the individual, working the land to gain prosperity, and class mobility. Colonies were to be established with land sold at a "sufficient price" - capitalists and entrepreneurs would be able to afford it and employ labourers, who would be able to quickly gain prosperity and independence, buy their own land, and employ further labourers. It was to create a society with enough capital AND enough labourers, but without trapping labourers to a permanent underclass. It was an idea in reaction to 19th century English society.

By the 1850s, Wakefield's ideas declined in significance and gave away to the idea of New Zealand as an Arcadia, a land of natural abundance that gave virtue to those who worked it. I suppose you could say the idea underpinning New Zealand in its gradual progression to independence - be it in Wakefieldian settlements or later - was the idea of "getting on". The greatest virtue was for a person to gain an independency by acquiring property (typically on the frontier) and working the land for their own gain and financial independence without a master. This was an atomised society, the world of "man alone".

So if you want a country settled on principles of equality of opportunity and personal independence - welcome to New Zealand. Settlers came to New Zealand because of ideas, Wakefieldian or Arcadian, not because of blood or soil or force.

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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
We fired a king, you hired one.
So, no, we didn't hire a king. Couldn't have anyway, since the British monarch at the time was Queen Victoria.

Anyway, I'm not sure I have the time to participate in a lengthy, sustained debate, so this may be the only detailed contribution I make.
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 08-21-2012, 09:49 PM   #144
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Many Americans are lucky if they even know how many U.S. states there are.
When I was in primary school in New Zealand, one year we had a trainee teacher working in our class who was from the US. Our actual teacher thought this would be a great chance to teach us about world geography, so we had to do a report on two countries - the US (or perhaps it was a state of our choice within the US, I forget now) and one other country.

... said trainee taught us that the US has 52 states. :facepalm:

I recall trying to figure out what the two extra states were (I think I put down DC and Puerto Rico, and I couldn't remember if Long Island or Rhode Island was a state) before this misinformation was corrected.

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Please tell me they did not go on to ask you about hobbits.
Haha, fortunately it was just things like "wow, is the whole country that beautiful?" (yes, yes it is), "do you know anybody who was in the movies?" (yes, yes I do), and "did you see any of the sets?" (yes, yes I did).
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 08-21-2012, 10:01 PM   #145
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We did see a kangaroo in our court the other day (major shock, I live in suburbia, about 30 mins drive from the nearest mountain range), so that did fulfill a stereotype.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:10 PM   #146
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So, no, we didn't hire a king. Couldn't have anyway, since the British monarch at the time was Queen Victoria.


Thanks, bedtime here so I'll read your post again tomorrow but, well, you got me there.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:11 PM   #147
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Thanks Axver and BoMac for researching!
I researched; I suspect Axver did not.

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what are you, some kind of socialist?
Canadian.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:11 PM   #148
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We did see a kangaroo in our court the other day (major shock, I live in suburbia, about 30 mins drive from the nearest mountain range), so that did fulfill a stereotype.
Was it a ... kangaroo court?



Thank you, I'll be here all week.

(When I lived on the Gold Coast, we had kangaroos, wallaroos, and rarely potoroos venturing into our backyard, which in fairness was a total wilderness in the foothills of the Hinterland. Plenty of snakes too. Mmm, stereotypes.)
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Ian McCulloch the U2 fan:
"Who buys U2 records anyway? It's just music for plumbers and bricklayers. Bono, what a slob. You'd think with all that climbing about he does, he'd look real fit and that. But he's real fat, y'know. Reminds me of a soddin' mountain goat."
"And as for Bono, he needs a colostomy bag for his mouth."

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Old 08-21-2012, 10:36 PM   #149
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Bono also regularly says "The world needs more Canadas" every time he is here.
Oh dear, one's enough!!

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You will also note that Ryan said that the US was the only country based on an idea. Which is not what I've heard Bono say.
But Bono only says it about America, so same difference.
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Old 08-21-2012, 10:43 PM   #150
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... said trainee taught us that the US has 52 states. :facepalm:
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