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Old 01-20-2010, 11:00 PM   #121
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Not to worry everyone, I just showed him how we are not emulating them in any way shape or form!
Maybe emulate is the wrong phrase, how about following in their footsteps.
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If he wants to start a discussion on the value of French cheese, wine and gorgeous girls in Paris being weighed against a socialized welfare state with high taxes and unemployment, we would love to hear it!
The advantage of being American is I can "cherchez la femme," bois du vin, mange un peu de fromage and then split.
But for what it's worth I wouldn't compare any American-made high performance car with a Ferrari either.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:26 PM   #122
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Tell me where it is not accurate, then.

Tell me where it does not make sense.

You like to respond to things with 2 line simplistic answers. Fine, but don't tell other people who think these things through that they don't make sense and stop at that.

Very true, good ability to read numbers, Scott Brown won many, many cities/towns that Obama carried easily. Independent voters make up the majority of MA voters, of course they went for Brown, never disputed that.

Just because people voted for Brown does not mean they are tea party people. They are malcontent independents, just as you point out. Many of these people don't pay too much attention and think that Obama was promising them an easy time handling the challenges he confronted. People have not given him enough time, but I digress.

I said 2 things that you called nonsense, so come back and tell me where I am wrong or inaccurate on these:

1.)The Republicans will absolutely not win in 2012 with the far right extremists they have running the party now. Not after 4 years of obstruction, and not once the economy has recovered and the anger has disappeared like it always does.

Sarah Palin is not taken seriously by anyone

What I was saying is if Brown goes the way of the far right , like he is indicating, he will be marginalized from mainstream America in a heartbeat. He won in MA with tea bag help, but that was not really until the end. The widespread perception of Scott Brown was that he is a moderate. Do you even live in/follow Massachusetts news?

The Republicans have gone too far to the right to be able to claim to represent mainstream America. Even with the economy still struggling and a massive botch of the healthcare debate by Obama, his approval ratings are still much higher than the Republicans in Congress as a whole.

2.)Most importantly, the Republicans will need a moderate to win. Look at all the people that voted for Democrats in 2006 and Obama in 2008. Alot of moderate/conservative voters and alot of moderate/conservative Democrats. Obama, contrary to what the right would have you believe, has governed from the center and made good faith efforts at bipartisanship. The Democrats were already trending centrist with Clinton, and did even more so in the last couple of years. That is why they won.

The Republicans, in order to get these voters back once the already begun recovery gets in gear, will have to moderate. The people in the middle are the ones who are uncomfortable with religious nuts like Sarah Palin and know nothing tea partiers running the Republican Party. Look at Arlen Specter, Jim Leach, Ray LaHood, Lincoln Chaffee. The Republicans have had alot more defections in recent years than Democrats, all moderates who say the party has driven them and their constituents out.

Hard core insistence on social conservatism, obstructionism and outrageous claims of socialism and death panels are what turns middle of the road voters off. The guy raising his family who is Independent and has voted for both parties in the past, worried about his job, etc has no use for the Republicans throwing tea parties and invoking Ronald Reagan at every turn.

If a Republican wins in 2012, it will be someone in the mold of Tim Pawlenty, Charlie Crist or Colin Powell.

2010 is not looking good for the Dems now, who knows once the recovery gets up and running. There are still 10 months. This is a testament to the fact that most people do not pay attention. Obama never promised, nor would he be capable of delivering, a full employment economy full of jobs and a balanced budget by 2010. Now, the voters seem ready to get him out and go back to what we already tried and failed at after only a year. Real smart. Most people have no idea of the issues anymore, we have become a soft, sit at home and watch reality TV society with no concept of anything.

2012 is way too far away to predict. Who knows? We could have a surging economy, a deficit cut in half, a stable Iraq and Afghanistan and a reduction in health care costs. We could have the exact opposite on all counts. Way too far out to start drawing conclusions about 2012 from elections that took place in recent days or months.
Your argument makes no sense. What this Scott Brown victory means is that country club Republican's are finished. Dead. Gone. Just look at David Frum and his recent rantings about Palin and now Brown - him and his ilk are scared shitless, and should be. Pawlenty is about as exciting a candidate as Walter Mondale. Romney's a country club Republican with a capitol C. Crist will be defeated by Mario Rubio later this year (mark my words) and Colin Powell just ain't got it. What will happen is this...The Republican party will morph with the Tea Party to become (at least on the surface) an anti-Government, Anti-Big Business, Anti-Wall Street "party of the people" - you'll be hearing the Palin's and the Brown's and those like them using the words "common sense" and "independent" more and more often. If the economy does not recover and there is no solution for health care then Obama will be the next Jimmy Carter. I'm hoping this doesn't come to pass but at this particular time all signs point to this. 2012 has all the potential to be 1980 all over again. Again, if the economy does not get better and especially if it gets worse what you'll see is a very serious possibility of a Palin/Brown ticket that will win in a landslide. Remember, there's 3 years to go for those two to soften their negatives and up their positives. As far as Palin goes I scoff at the people on the left and the right who seem to dismiss her impact, it's actually scary how stupid some people are. These are the same type of people who laughed and scoffed at Regan in the late 70's when there was talk of him running for President. It so closely mirrors that time that it spooks me. It really does.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:41 PM   #123
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Good points. Republicans ran John McCain, Mr Moderate, Mr Bipartisan, and lost big. Why repeat that? Considering what the economy did the final 6 years of Reagan's term we should be so lucky as to repeat 1980.

All that's missing is A Flock Of Seagulls. We do have The Ting Tings, close enough.

Only thing that could mess it up would be if President Obama dumped histhe radical agenda, pulled a Clinton, and governed from the center. Clinton of course was reelected after losing both houses in the midterms.

But who sees that happening?
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:36 AM   #124
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back to the bitter clingers thing? Just can't accept the fact that most Americans just aren't that into the European-style social welfare state.

this from someone who whines about identity politics when it may or may not come from black or brown or female or gay people??
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Old 01-21-2010, 12:59 AM   #125
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Only thing that could mess it up would be if President Obama dumped histhe radical agenda, pulled a Clinton, and governed from the center. Clinton of course was reelected after losing both houses in the midterms.
It's neither radical nor an agenda, or at least not an agenda in the snarky way in which you mean it.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:29 AM   #126
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you know what makes this funny? the number of idiots who think hitler/fascist means liberal.
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:50 AM   #127
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There must be something in the water

Watch "Glenn Beck Slams MA Senator Scott Brown For "Posing Nude" & "Dowry For His Daughters"" Video at mediaite

the main tea bag guy is taking shots at Sen Brown before he is even sworn in.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:46 AM   #128
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Maybe emulate is the wrong phrase, how about following in their footsteps.

Again, tell me how we are doing that. Don't get cute here with words, I laid out for you exactly how Obama's policies were not in any way similar to the policies long pursued by European social welfare states. You obviously don't know issues, so you don't discuss them in any serious way. Thanks for telling me!

The advantage of being American is I can "cherchez la femme," bois du vin, mange un peu de fromage and then split.
But for what it's worth I wouldn't compare any American-made high performance car with a Ferrari either.


I would not give up being an American, it has way too many advantages to count.

Outside of Jeeps, I would think long and hard before ever buying an American car. I'll take my Acura any day, I know it wont break down.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:47 AM   #129
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Your argument makes no sense. What this Scott Brown victory means is that country club Republican's are finished. Dead. Gone. Just look at David Frum and his recent rantings about Palin and now Brown - him and his ilk are scared shitless, and should be. Pawlenty is about as exciting a candidate as Walter Mondale. Romney's a country club Republican with a capitol C. Crist will be defeated by Mario Rubio later this year (mark my words) and Colin Powell just ain't got it. What will happen is this...The Republican party will morph with the Tea Party to become (at least on the surface) an anti-Government, Anti-Big Business, Anti-Wall Street "party of the people" - you'll be hearing the Palin's and the Brown's and those like them using the words "common sense" and "independent" more and more often. If the economy does not recover and there is no solution for health care then Obama will be the next Jimmy Carter. I'm hoping this doesn't come to pass but at this particular time all signs point to this. 2012 has all the potential to be 1980 all over again. Again, if the economy does not get better and especially if it gets worse what you'll see is a very serious possibility of a Palin/Brown ticket that will win in a landslide. Remember, there's 3 years to go for those two to soften their negatives and up their positives. As far as Palin goes I scoff at the people on the left and the right who seem to dismiss her impact, it's actually scary how stupid some people are. These are the same type of people who laughed and scoffed at Regan in the late 70's when there was talk of him running for President. It so closely mirrors that time that it spooks me. It really does.
Scott Brown ran as a country club Republican, at least if you want to define that as claiming to be fiscally conservative and socially moderate(Brown is pro choice, pro environment, pro health care in principal). Can another word be moderate? Romney, the ultimate Country club Republican with your capital "C" strongly supported and financed Brown, and his 3 top operatives ran his campaign and advertising. So no, the election of Brown is not a repudiation of the country club Republican, it shows that running on that message is still viable! Make no mistake, Brown did not run as any right wing radical tea bagger, they came in after the race got close about ten days ago. The majority of his supporters truly think they voted for Scott Brown the moderate and not Scott Brown the tea bagging patsy he is quickly becoming. There is no doubt about that. So we have the first hole in your theory that a Sarah Palin foam at the mouth right wing campaign would win in a landslide.

Romney has long since run away from the country club label, and Brown is well on his way to doing so. I did not say the country clubs were still a factor, far from it. Do not use something I did not say next to "your argument makes no sense" okay? What I did say, was that the Republicans need to move to the center(call it country club if you want, but that's not necessarily what centrist Republican means). So what you have are Republicans running as moderates while actually being tea baggers. The voters will catch onto this act, and throw them out. This is the only thing the election of Brown says about the internal workings of the GOP. They have calculated that it is a good idea to run for high profile seats as moderates, tack far right, run on that 4 years later and hope no one notices! Great, brilliant thinking. It really helped former moderates Romney and McCain in 2008, didn't it?

I was not trying to argue for the merits of Pawlenty, Powell or Crist, or for their electoral prospects(Crist) just pointing out that they need a moderate with similar views to these people. If not, then the Republicans will continue their slide into the party of the right wing extreme and the right wing extreme only. This will not get them a win in 2012. You will get more Arlen Specters who just do not recognize the party any more, and you will get the moderates who used to lean Republican voting against them. The destroy the government, don't do anything about the economy or health care, lets ban condoms and books extreme right philosophy does nothing for the suburban soccer moms and business types that the country club Republicans did well with.

Bottom line: Republicans stop letting the extreme right and the tea baggers control the party, or they pay for it big time at the polls. This is why the Dave Frum types are worried. They know Palin can not win. If they thought a candidate like her would win, they would not be trying desperately to pull the party away from her. They are sounding the clarion call to save the party before it disappears. You saying David Frum is afraid of her because she will win makes no sense. It is exactly the opposite.

McCain had shed any credibility he had as a centrist reformer and was running to the right long before he even picked Palin. We already know what will happen to a right wing ticket that can not offer anything but more of the same tax cuts for millionaires, deficits and open intentions to drown the government. Democrats, Independents and sane Republicans know we can't drown the government, that we need to fund education, that we need to do something about infrastructure, about health care costs, etc. They know that to do this and be fiscally responsible, the government needs some more revenue. They have no use for demagoguery in place of fact based solutions on terrorism and immigration. Mr and Mrs Businessman and Soccer mom have no use for the Republican Party as is, they told us in 2008!

2012 is starting to look like 1980? We just started 2010! Neither of us has any idea what 2012 is looking like! Alot can happen between now and then. The economy will be doing much better by then(mathematical certainty). The voter anger will not be there, and now that Brown has promised to stop everything, then sooner or later, the voters will be pissed at the obstructionist Republicans. The voters don't like gridlock, either! Remember, Republicans still have a much lower approval rating than Obama.

The higher the profile of the tea party movement becomes(they are already a big factor in every race), the more they will be exposed as extreme nuts whose only issue is they hate Obama. That is all it is, period. Listen to these people when they are interviewed! Not a one of them can form a coherent sentence on any issue, all they can do is repeat talking points, hold up "socialism" signs, hope for Obama the "nazi" to fail and make claims that have already been proven wrong about his birth certificate. What a pathetic group of people! They don't hate deficits and spending, otherwise, they would have been formed when Reagan got elected, and peaked when Bush and Republicans spent us to a $1.3 trillion deficit.

A Palin/Brown ticket in 2012??!! Aren't you jumping the gun a little? The guy just got elected a Senator, and you are saying he is going to wind up on a GOP ticket with Sarah Palin and win in a landslide? This guy has not even arrived in Washington yet, and he did not care to explain any details of his platform, even on his signature issue, health care. All he promised was to join the "no" crowd, which does not exactly set him apart from other Republicans. The Republican party would be committing suicide by putting Palin and Brown together, neither of whom know the issues.

Mark my words: There is absolutely no way Sarah Palin or Scott Brown will, individually or together, win the White House in 2012. You may think the tea party movement is strong/represents a majority of Americans, but it is not nearly strong enough to get Sarah Palin to the top of the GOP ticket. This woman literally has no idea what she is talking about, has proven herself to be a complete nutjob who does not know the issues. No one in moderate, independent America is going to vote for this imbecile who does not even know who her own kid is fighting in Iraq, has no idea where major countries are, was exposed as a corrupt governor, tells kids to just say no to sex but ignores her own daughter, denies global warming, resigns as Governor and becomes a Fox News Commentator. The woman is flat out dangerous, and many Republicans and independents(the people who vote in GOP primaries) view her as a liability. Notice she went nowhere near the Scott Brown race! The only time you will ever hear of her again is in the tabloids.

Yes, on the surface, the tea party movement appears populist, anti big business, but these are the first people who would vote in lock step with the health industry lobby to kill the bill. Many big business lobbyists have actually financed these tea party movements! Republicans are very good at fake populism, remember Bush dressing up his high paid staffers to appear "as real working types" to defend his tax cuts?

You are right in claiming that Reagan was dismissed when he ran as the right wing populist against the Republican establishment. I did not like Reagan, thought he was just an actor talking a good game, was a front for big business(the 1981 tax bill mostly opened loopholes), and made deficit spending fashionable. That being said, I don't think you could ever make a case that Palin is in any way similar to Reagan! Reagan at least had somewhat of an idea on the issues and could talk about them when asked. She has no clue and no interest in getting one. He was also ultimately a pragmatist, working with Democrats and Republicans on Social Security, the 86 tax reform bill, Soviet negotiations, etc. Palin shows no appetite for doing anything but lie about the other side with "socialism" and "killing her baby with down syndrome" b.s. In other words, I disagreed with Reagan, but he possessed a modicum of intelligence, knowledge of the issues, common sense and class, none of which Sarah Palin has showed an ounce of.

Reagan in 1976 was a GOP primary against an incumbent President. Ford had the Republican money and establishment behind him, as all wanted to avoid a bruising primary. The country was moderate, country club Republicans were prevalent and even alot of Conservatives had no interest in taking a gamble on Reagan that year! Many business oriented Republicans saw Reagan's economic plan as reckless and unworkable. Reagan had no intention of winning, just raising his profile and the profile of the right wing of the GOP. He viewed the defeat as vital to his 1980 strategy, or so he said in later interviews. Reagan came out of that known to and liked by many more Americans!

Palin is a completely different story. She was picked as a VP in an open election and was one of the biggest reasons the ticket lost and was viewed as a complete joke. Her impact has already been tested in a GOP-Dem one on one match up and its an overwhelming negative! Unlike Reagan in 1976, Palin became known to America and quickly proved herself to be incompetent and dangerous beyond words(Reagan waited until he was in office to prove this!). 2010 Palin=damaged goods, 1978 Reagan=rising GOP superstar!

Long story short: Every factual development so far points against your assertion that the purging of the moderates will somehow lead to electoral success for Republicans. They admit it themselves, otherwise you would not have David Frums speaking out nor would you have Scott Brown running as a moderate. Their only hope is to try and paint Obama as far left and the tea party as the center, but that act will get exposed for what is in a more rational climate than today. Put another way, that tea bag will dry up and blow away! The Republicans will then have 2 options, just like I said originally: 1.)lose or 2.)Go to the center.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:40 AM   #130
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Good points. Republicans ran John McCain, Mr Moderate, Mr Bipartisan, and lost big. Why repeat that? Considering what the economy did the final 6 years of Reagan's term we should be so lucky as to repeat 1980.

All that's missing is A Flock Of Seagulls. We do have The Ting Tings, close enough.

Only thing that could mess it up would be if President Obama dumped histhe radical agenda, pulled a Clinton, and governed from the center. Clinton of course was reelected after losing both houses in the midterms.

But who sees that happening?
John McCain, Mr Moderate, Mr Bipartisan was long gone by the time he got the Republican nomination. He flip flopped on torture, tax cuts, cap and trade, you name it. McCain ran as a conservative all the way and bolstered this by picking Palin.

The economy the final 6 years of Reagan's term was nothing special. Higher unemployment, slower job growth than Clinton and big deficits. Most Americans saw their wages decrease and their taxes increase under Reagan, while we lost ground to countries like Japan. Reagan's response to this was protectionism, especially in the auto industry. That worked well! Nothing anywhere near as good as the Clinton years. It was ok, and good compared to the deep recession of 81-82, but overall, GDP growth, investment, etc in the 1980s was on par with the 1970s.

Obama is governing from the center, and has made good faith attempts at bipartisanship. The Republicans have of course been little babies, not willing to compromise even though they got their asses kicked, and from Day 1, united against Obama in lockstep. This did quite a bit for them, including getting the Democrats to 60 by losing one of their long time Senators, Specter, to a defection. Now they are promising to kill everything Obama is proposing with the addition of #41 Scott Brown. If Obama is addressing the real issues and going out of his way to reach out to the Republicans, but the Republicans can do nothing but obstruct and offer no real alternatives at all, then how are they bipartisan? How can you fault Obama for reaching out and finding them to be unwilling babies who will throw an endless temper tantrum to stop anything and everything they don't like?

I already gave you Obama's main agenda items, showed you factually that they are not radical, they are in fact pretty centrist. I asked you to respond with the agenda items you think Obama has pursued , or if you agree they are the items I mentioned, then to tell me how they are radical.

You are incapable of doing either, obviously. You continue to make claims of Obama being "radical" without feeling the need to defend this by explaining yourself and backing it up by pointing out actual out of the mainstream policies he has pursued.

Do you realize how pathetic you sound when you just make baseless generalizations that offer no facts? Don't do that and expect to be taken seriously by me or anyone else not stuck on talking points and buzzwords.

From the looks of it, you need to read some newspaper articles, practice some critical thinking, get some facts and figures to replace your generalizations and then come back when you have done that.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:07 AM   #131
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@Harry Vest- The main thing to keep in mind is that I was not trying to argue with you about the moderate Republican being a dying or dead breed, I agree, it is. The only thing left of it is a few disingenuous, slick pols like Romney and Brown will run on it to hide their real agendas. So you saying my argument makes no sense because the moderate Republican is gone does not mean a thing. Its not what I was getting at.

What I am getting at is the Republicans will pay for running to the extreme right tea bagger crowd. This would be true of a national election today I believe, and will be even more true when:
1.)The economy is better, removing the voter anger that is so strong now
2.)The GOP gets more time to obstruct and offer nothing.

I would seriously caution anyone without a strong knowledge of MA politics and serious interest in this campaign since the time Ted Kennedy died against reading anything trend setting into Scott Brown's victory. Yes, voters are pissed about the economy, but Martha Coakley had a 20-30 point lead just 2 weeks ago when the economy was no better and blew it. If you blow a lead like that, that is all the candidate and their campaign's doing. (said campaign was made up of teamster thugs and MA political hacks, not known for swaying undecideds)

"As opposed to standing outside Fenway park, in the cold, shaking hands?" That was an actual quote from Coakley when asked about her lack of campaigning versus Brown's!!! Ted Kennedy, as safe as his seat usually was, would go out to the voters, listen to their concerns, ask for their votes and EARN another term every time. This Coakley was a joke.

It is what it is. Sarah Palin could not run against Obama tomorrow and win, not even the way things are now.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:44 AM   #132
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You're the one making the outlandish claims. The burden of proof is most certainly on you.
And he has no intention of meeting that burden.

I clearly tell him how we are not emulating(his word, emulate) them in any way, shape or form, then he comes back with: "Emulate maybe the wrong word, how about follow in their footsteps?"

Leave aside the fact that "following in their footsteps" is much more specific than emulate(which he is saying may have been too specific)! He changed the word and it did not even backpedal his claim like he wanted to do!

Clearly all he cares about is changing a word or 2, not addressing the argument in any way at all.

For him, generalizations and repeating claims he hears from the tea baggers and Rush is a substitute from having to explain himself to mere idiots like you and I!

Too bad.

Just like Strongbow, he has proven himself to be incapable of a reasonable discussion on anything, and so is not worth any more of my time.

Good luck with him!
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:39 AM   #133
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Yet anyone would know what I mean by a European-style social welfare state.
Well except, you know... those that like facts and logic. But who needs those people, it's much more fun to live in isolated exceptionalism...
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:05 PM   #134
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interesting reading through some of the right wing blogs -- there's ample concern that Brown isn't conservative enough, especially when taken in light of NY-23 last fall, and that the GOP is only going to get behind the RINO's (republican in name only) and spend their money there since these kinds of politicians can win even in states (like VA, NJ, and MA) where Obama retains a fairly high approval rating. the culture wars they want to fight are not going to be won by bringing more Scott Brown -- a rather liberal Republican -- type to Washington. so while the tea partiers respect his campaign and his anti-Washington rhetoric, they're not so happy about pretty much everything else about Brown. and, more importantly, for the Palin crowd, he's going to be a case-in-point in contests where the established GOP candidate is going to be challenged from the Right, like in Florida where sensible, moderate Crist is likely going to lose to Rubio, likely sending the far right Rubio to likely defeat in the general.

if more GOP members were like Brown, and if the GOP knows it can win without stroking the pro-torture, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, racist, generally insane base, perhaps that will give Obama the chance to work with Senators who are actually interested in governing the country, rather than the nihilists (DeMint, Cornyn, Inhofe, etc.)
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Old 01-21-2010, 01:18 PM   #135
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Too bad.

Just like Strongbow, he has proven himself to be incapable of a reasonable discussion on anything, and so is not worth any more of my time.

Good luck with him!
Just out of curiosity, do you consider anyone with the opposite opinion of yourself capable of "reasonable discussion"?
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