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Old 01-20-2010, 01:51 AM   #76
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Could of swore I heard someone from time to time say Gitmo was no less than a terrorist recruiting tool.
And the anti-war Left tells us that all terrorists come with a laundry lists of complaints, grievances and fatwas which we need to be sensitive to.
And saying that is somehow justifying or defending terrorist attacks?

It is a recruiting tool, Al Qaeda has used it to cast America in some kind of bad, secret light. Pointing this out is not making excuses for why they attack us, it is just pointing out that it hurts our cause with the Muslims who are making a decision between progress, freedom and capitalism on one hand and backward, violent AQ thugs on the other hand.

Bush supported closing Gitmo. is he a terrorist defender?

The Marines, The CIA, the State Department are all concerned with what terrorists use or may use as recruiting tools, and they seek to counter them. They must be terrorist defenders as well, right?

You clearly do not understand the difference here.

As for the complaints, grievances and fatwas, I do not know of anyone who is of any consequence that has said these are things we need to be sensitive to. As I said, maybe a few crazy nuts, but they are the minority. Don't confuse people who think Iraq was a bad idea and a recruiting tool with people who would sit there and defend the indefensible tactics that terrorists use. Maybe a few left wing nuts like that Professor in Colorado would, but they have no policymaking role whatsoever, just people who can say whatever they want and use tenure as a defense. Besides, wasn't it Pat Robertson who defended 9/11 as punishment to a nation that has turned from God? So Pat Robertson and Ron Paul so far for prominent pundits/politicians. Anyone else you can name?

Certainly no Democrat in office making policy today holds this view, so the fact that you would feel the need to point it out in defending Scott Brown's idiocy is a little strange.

Again, address what I was saying about the actual quote by Brown. Notice you did not do that!

The fact remains:
1.)We are spending taxpayer money on defending terrorists right now.
2.)We have an inefficient, ineffective military tribunal system set up now at Gitmo that has botched at every turn the trial of the 9/11 mastermind.
3.)We have a federal court system, used by every President from both parties including Bush and Obama, that has proven very effective at locking these guys up and keeping them there.

Tell me why we should change it to score political points for Scott Brown or anyone else?
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:01 AM   #77
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Originally Posted by deep View Post
The guy is tall good looking, gives a great stump speech. He can relate to the common man (and woman) and they relate to him.

If Palin belonged on the ticket in 2008 and if a freshman Senator from Illinois was qualified to run for President in 2008.

Then I say Scott Brown is the person to watch in 2012.
True, but that assumes that Scott Brown will be able to withstand a challenge in 2012, which believe me, has already begun in earnest.

I do not know how familiar you are with figures in Massachusetts, but if Chris Gabrieli or Steve Pagliuca or Congressman Richard Neal run against Brown, then they will clean his clock.

Also, since Brown is going to the far right, looking poised to back off his pro choice views, tying himself to the tea baggers, etc, that does not look good in 2012.

The Republicans will either:
1.)Continue this Sarah Palin anti intellectual, anti fact, fantasy based extreme right wing experiment, turning off moderate voters in the process.
Under this scenario, forget about 2012.
or

2.)Field a true moderate, who rejects the tea party types, acknowledges that Ronald Reagan left office in 1989 and can not be called down for everything, presents a forward looking plan for the future and does not feel the need to resort to outrageous claims of socialism or death panels. This person would have to acknowledge the need to raise taxes and cut spending, that global warming exists, that health care status quo is unacceptable, that right wing nuts aren't the only good Republicans, and that bipartisanship does not mean the Democrats caving to the tea partiers.

Since Brown is on his way into the first group, he could suffer the same fate as the "regular gal" Palin if he tries to run for President. Maybe there will be a job for him at Fox News, though!
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:03 AM   #78
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Originally Posted by melon View Post
And, just to note, the Democrats clearly earned their loss in this election. What was Martha Coakley thinking?
You can say that again!

Brown is not my guy, but my hats off to him tonight for the campaign he ran while Coakley sat at home scoffing at everyone!
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Old 01-20-2010, 02:43 AM   #79
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True, but that assumes that Scott Brown will be able to withstand a challenge in 2012, which believe me, has already begun in earnest.

I do not know how familiar you are with figures in Massachusetts, but if Chris Gabrieli or Steve Pagliuca or Congressman Richard Neal run against Brown, then they will clean his clock.

Also, since Brown is going to the far right, looking poised to back off his pro choice views, tying himself to the tea baggers, etc, that does not look good in 2012.

The Republicans will either:
1.)Continue this Sarah Palin anti intellectual, anti fact, fantasy based extreme right wing experiment, turning off moderate voters in the process.
Under this scenario, forget about 2012.
or

2.)Field a true moderate, who rejects the tea party types, acknowledges that Ronald Reagan left office in 1989 and can not be called down for everything, presents a forward looking plan for the future and does not feel the need to resort to outrageous claims of socialism or death panels. This person would have to acknowledge the need to raise taxes and cut spending, that global warming exists, that health care status quo is unacceptable, that right wing nuts aren't the only good Republicans, and that bipartisanship does not mean the Democrats caving to the tea partiers.

Since Brown is on his way into the first group, he could suffer the same fate as the "regular gal" Palin if he tries to run for President. Maybe there will be a job for him at Fox News, though!
Your thoughtful and reasoned response really is not acurate. I am sure it makes perfect sense to you.

But one thing this election tonight and the Democratic Primary in 2008 taught me is that all these elections are about is the independent voters and malcontents. There are quite a few people that voted for Obama that are with the tae bag group now. Look at the precincts that Scott carried that Obama easily won.

Palin will not get the nomination in 2012. I think Obama and the Dems could have a hard time in 2012. This November is looking bleak for the Dems.
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Old 01-20-2010, 03:17 AM   #80
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Old 01-20-2010, 05:04 AM   #81
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Expect to hear variations on that theme leading up to Nov. It resonates.
Have they perfected the terrorist seeking missile yet, or are you fine as long as it's set for "Arab"?
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Old 01-20-2010, 06:39 AM   #82
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A few things of note:
The stage was set by a state legislature that kept changing the rules of how the senate seat gets filled to suit the party needs and not the peoples needs. Another example of the people feeling their ability to choose being trampled.

1) I spoke to no less than 8 people who have always voted democrat, who voted for Scott Brown over one issue - health care reform.
2) Scott Brown out campaigned her in every facet of the campaign.
3) She did not prepare for the debate. Her comments on Afghanistan were the second reason many people opened their eyes and scratched their head. That coupled with his "It's the people's seat." distinguished him from her. Then the next day attending a fundraising event in DC with health care lobbyists turned off people even more.
4) The barrage of negativity - that came from her camp at the same time she lost the debate - made her look weak and scared - because people raised and eyebrow after the debate.
5) He was everywhere - relentless - shaking EVERY hand - signing autographs and worked his ass off harder than any candidate in my lifetime. All politics is local - and he made it local. I have NEVER seen so many home made signs for a candidate in my life. They were everywhere. I cannot think of an election where people took the time to make their own signs and put them on their lawns. I take this as a sign of people who wanted to send a message, more than any other time in my life.
6) Many people view this as a two year audition for him. It is not a six year term. If he goes too far to the right, he will not be there in two years.

This is Massachusetts. We have elected republican governors before, but there has never been a movement for a Republican candidate like this. It is definitely a message that people are still looking for change. Not change for the sake of change, but change that makes fiscal sense. They are tired of the back room deals, and this health care bill is on everyones mind as being a back room deal. The people are looking for a candidate, not kissing lobbyists ass. People want to be heard. That illusion was created last night. Maybe it will be a reality, but all politicians...are accountable to someone other than the people.
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Old 01-20-2010, 07:57 AM   #83
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a far-left agenda


what is this and what does it look like? or is this just another buzz word to reframe intransigence as common sense?
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:10 AM   #84
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Really just shows that R's are so much better as a political machine than the D's. Democrat's have no one to blame but themselves really. True the scare tactics of the republicans (or their spokespeople Rush/Beck/Hannity) hasn't helped at all, but democrats really found another way to just fuck all of this up. We could have had a reform of healthcare by now, but no.....

My question is, so what changes now that Brown is in office??? Are people just happy because he can block a fillibuster? And if the republicans do take over in November, what changes again? Is the only reason to elect an official to just make sure Prez agenda doesn't pass?????

I try not to get too involved with everything washington, as it's pretty depressing/angering/etc, but has any bills passed in the past 10-12 years that has actually been beneficial for the people of this country?

right wingers post on here how we must stop Obama, we must get R's seats back, but you offer no solution to the nation's problems. And again, democrats have the majority, and yet nothing gets done.

expell them all
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:26 AM   #85
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Originally Posted by Dreadsox View Post
A few things of note:
The stage was set by a state legislature that kept changing the rules of how the senate seat gets filled to suit the party needs and not the peoples needs. Another example of the people feeling their ability to choose being trampled.

1) I spoke to no less than 8 people who have always voted democrat, who voted for Scott Brown over one issue - health care reform.
2) Scott Brown out campaigned her in every facet of the campaign.
3) She did not prepare for the debate. Her comments on Afghanistan were the second reason many people opened their eyes and scratched their head. That coupled with his "It's the people's seat." distinguished him from her. Then the next day attending a fundraising event in DC with health care lobbyists turned off people even more.
4) The barrage of negativity - that came from her camp at the same time she lost the debate - made her look weak and scared - because people raised and eyebrow after the debate.
5) He was everywhere - relentless - shaking EVERY hand - signing autographs and worked his ass off harder than any candidate in my lifetime. All politics is local - and he made it local. I have NEVER seen so many home made signs for a candidate in my life. They were everywhere. I cannot think of an election where people took the time to make their own signs and put them on their lawns. I take this as a sign of people who wanted to send a message, more than any other time in my life.
6) Many people view this as a two year audition for him. It is not a six year term. If he goes too far to the right, he will not be there in two years.

This is Massachusetts. We have elected republican governors before, but there has never been a movement for a Republican candidate like this. It is definitely a message that people are still looking for change. Not change for the sake of change, but change that makes fiscal sense. They are tired of the back room deals, and this health care bill is on everyones mind as being a back room deal. The people are looking for a candidate, not kissing lobbyists ass. People want to be heard. That illusion was created last night. Maybe it will be a reality, but all politicians...are accountable to someone other than the people.
Summed up quite well.

I definitely think the outrage started with the temporary fill of the seat when Ted K passed. It opened a lot of peoples' eyes to the Democrats in office thinking they could do as they please to serve their agenda with no input from the public.

Then Martha just took the ball and dropped it...repeatedly.
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Old 01-20-2010, 08:39 AM   #86
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still, one wonders how they let her run such an awful, awful campaign.
Arrogance and taking it completely for granted.

There are other factors-a Democratic governor who has done a terrible job, the excessive taxes in MA and the way they just keep going up, in a recession= backlash against Democrats. But when you have a state that voted for Obama by 26 points and it votes in a Republican Senator to the seat held by a Democrat since 1972 (Ted Kennedy no less) the writing is on the wall Mr. President. If he doesn't read it then he's not the man I thought he was, sorry. Or I wanted to think he was. A man of his word and not just another typical politician. The backroom deal for unions not to pay the tax on Cadillac health care plans to try to get Coakley elected was a very bad move-very bad. People aren't stupid-and where is the "transparency"? There are no exit polls for this election but when you see voters interviewed and just listen to the general mood you know what's going on. There is an element of Republicans who just oppose Obama no matter what-but here we had Democrats who are disenchanted and disappointed. Enough to combine with Independents/unenrolled and 12 percent Republicans to get him a win.

As sad as it is for me to admit, when the President came to MA to campaign for Coakley I just thought bad move. Never thought I'd be saying something like that just one year later. Why do you want that image out there when people are already saying loud and clear that it's an Obama referendum?

The reason this special election happened was that the Democrats stopped Romney from appointing a Republican senator to replace Kerry if he won the presidency. They changed the rules and then it came back to bite them in the butt. Just one of the many ironies that played out yesterday.

It's up to Democrats and the President now-either truly listen or keep doing what you've been doing and see what happens in 2012. And 2010.

If Republicans honestly believe we need universal health care then where is their plan? Why hasn't a Republican President ever done a thing?

That is what upsets me the most and why I voted the way I did-because it's a personal and moral issue for me and I just don't see a Republican ever doing anything about it. Doesn't mean I'm happy about the way Obama and the Democrats are going about it.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:16 AM   #87
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The guy is good looking
I just don't see it. Not even the Cosmo picture. He said he used the money to pay for school (school was much less expensive then) and it is what it is.

And his speech went on and on and on and on..and talk about "pimping out" your daughters-saying that they're available and one of them appeared to be wearing an engagement ring and the other one said she wasn't and his wife told him to stop. I guess that's supposed to be part of his "awshucks" charm but I didn't get it. Just like the truck. He allegedly owns five properties but he has to always remind us about the truck. Yeehaw. He's going to drive it to DC and live in the military barracks there.

Oh and my wife had to be impartial because she's a tv reporter but I'll let you know a secret-she voted for MEEEE....

I get the feeling that his wife and daughters do some splainin for him on a fairly regular basis.
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Old 01-20-2010, 09:31 AM   #88
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Big Grin

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.

And his speech went on and on and on and on..and talk about "pimping out" your daughters-saying that they're available and one of them appeared to be wearing an engagement ring and the other one said she wasn't and his wife told him to stop. I guess that's supposed to be part of his "awshucks" charm but I didn't get it. .
I was under the impression Scotty had a few cocktails prior to his acceptance speech.
It started off fine, but he started sounding a bit too Howard Dean-esque as it wore on. I half expexted him to say his daughter Ayla gave good head. He definitely should have cut it shorter. Chalk it up to exuberrance, and see where he goes from here.
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:22 AM   #89
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Haha...classic headline!

Scott Brown Wins Mass. Race, Giving GOP 41-59 Majority in the Senate - New York News - Runnin' Scared

Quote:
The lesson, as always, is that when Democrats win, they lose, and when they lose, they are obliterated.
And Andrew Sullivan's response resonates with me:

Quote:
I know now more than ever before why I could never be a Democrat and feel it vital to defeat the current Republican nihilism. Which leaves me with Obama. This is a critical moment. How he responds will be everything. I think there is a response and that, oddly enough, his chances of re-election in 2012 just rose. He must not return to Clintonism. He must reignite the center around him.
Indeed. I have found myself less-and-less endeared to the Democratic Party certainly since the 2004 election; but, of course, with the GOP becoming more-and-more unhinged, I think many of us who would otherwise be ready to entertain the opposition find ourselves stuck. The U.S. needs its two parties to be engaged in healthy competition again. What we don't need is one party with its head stuck up its ass (the Democrats--and pun intended) and the other having paranoid hallucinations while tilting at windmills (GOP).

I'm not sure what the general public can do to hasten this cooperation--and, indeed, it is up to us, as neither party is about to derail the donor gravy train dominated by special interests--but I do worry that the general public itself is as much at fault for the spectacle as the parties. Is it not possible to create a movement in favour of sanity and healthy policy debates based on logic and reason?
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:21 PM   #90
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Exactly why it resonates. It's guaranteed to piss off the pundits and scolds that insist on telling us it's our fault they hate us.
It resonates with people who like buzzwords. That's it.

I say "Jesus fucking Christ" for two reasons: one, because it pisses me off that someone who actually pays attention still resorts to such blatant lies to try to swing the political balance, and two, because I know there are a lot of stupid people out there who would take that horrendously stupid idea at face value.
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