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Old 01-21-2010, 01:42 PM   #136
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Just out of curiosity, do you consider anyone with the opposite opinion of yourself capable of "reasonable discussion"?
There have been conservative posters capable of reasonable discussion on some issues. You're not one of them. You frame discussions to be only about factors you have a grasp on and can spin in your direction, and dismiss all other factors as irrelevant. If you're not willing to address counter-arguments as anything other than irrelevant, you are then incapable of said reasonable discussion.

This is by no means a personal attack against you. I'm sure you're a pleasant fellow. As a participant in political discussion, however, you're very unreasonable.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:13 PM   #137
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Just out of curiosity, do you consider anyone with the opposite opinion of yourself capable of "reasonable discussion"?
I really hate this argument. I've seen very few here in FYM that honestly dismiss everyone who has a differing opinion, and the few that do act this way are hardly regular posters. Now of course there are people who make their livings thinking and acting this way, and we all know who they are, I feel that those that follow these individuals be it on any side fall into this category of dismissing anyone who disagrees with them. Do I think that there are conservatives who are capable of reasonable discussion? Absolutely. Do any of them post in here? Not on a regular basis anymore, and it's quite a shame.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:38 PM   #138
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well, now that the SCOTUS has deemed corporations to be American citizens with constitutional rights, we can be sure that the special interests of both parties will become ever more entrenched.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:06 PM   #139
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you know what makes this funny? the number of idiots who think hitler/fascist means liberal.
I agree with you. But I posted it because it was humorous, nothing more.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:55 PM   #140
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John McCain, Mr Moderate, Mr Bipartisan was long gone by the time he got the Republican nomination. He flip flopped on torture, tax cuts, cap and trade, you name it. McCain ran as a conservative all the way and bolstered this by picking Palin.

The economy the final 6 years of Reagan's term was nothing special. Higher unemployment, slower job growth than Clinton and big deficits. Most Americans saw their wages decrease and their taxes increase under Reagan, while we lost ground to countries like Japan. Reagan's response to this was protectionism, especially in the auto industry. That worked well! Nothing anywhere near as good as the Clinton years. It was ok, and good compared to the deep recession of 81-82, but overall, GDP growth, investment, etc in the 1980s was on par with the 1970s.

Obama is governing from the center, and has made good faith attempts at bipartisanship. The Republicans have of course been little babies, not willing to compromise even though they got their asses kicked, and from Day 1, united against Obama in lockstep. This did quite a bit for them, including getting the Democrats to 60 by losing one of their long time Senators, Specter, to a defection. Now they are promising to kill everything Obama is proposing with the addition of #41 Scott Brown. If Obama is addressing the real issues and going out of his way to reach out to the Republicans, but the Republicans can do nothing but obstruct and offer no real alternatives at all, then how are they bipartisan? How can you fault Obama for reaching out and finding them to be unwilling babies who will throw an endless temper tantrum to stop anything and everything they don't like?

I already gave you Obama's main agenda items, showed you factually that they are not radical, they are in fact pretty centrist. I asked you to respond with the agenda items you think Obama has pursued , or if you agree they are the items I mentioned, then to tell me how they are radical.

You are incapable of doing either, obviously. You continue to make claims of Obama being "radical" without feeling the need to defend this by explaining yourself and backing it up by pointing out actual out of the mainstream policies he has pursued.

Do you realize how pathetic you sound when you just make baseless generalizations that offer no facts? Don't do that and expect to be taken seriously by me or anyone else not stuck on talking points and buzzwords.

From the looks of it, you need to read some newspaper articles, practice some critical thinking, get some facts and figures to replace your generalizations and then come back when you have done that.
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The economy the final 6 years of Reagan's term was nothing special
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but overall, GDP growth, investment, etc in the 1980s was on par with the 1970s.
Absurd, especially when you figure in inflation, interest and unemployment rates.

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Obama is governing from the center, and has made good faith attempts at bipartisanship.
Only on National Defense could one even attempt to utter this with a straight face. Unless you consider tripling the debt, taking control of car companies, insurance companies, mortgage banks, student loans and the health care system, governing from the center.

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Do you realize how pathetic you sound when you just make baseless generalizations that offer no facts? Don't do that and expect to be taken seriously by me or anyone else not stuck on talking points and buzzwords.
Gosh, wouldn't it be fun to add up your use of "tea-baggers" in the past few days.

But I really enjoy this:
Quote:
2012 is starting to look like 1980? We just started 2010! Neither of us has any idea what 2012 is looking like! Alot can happen between now and then. The economy will be doing much better by then(mathematical certainty).
Like to see the formula that can predict with certainty that the economy will not be slowed in 2012 by a recession, depression, war, financial collapse, rapture, Iran wanting to play with their new atomic toys or the world ending per a Nostradamus quatrain, the Mayan calendar. Godzilla & Rodan, or a Hadron Super Collider created black hole.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:13 PM   #141
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if more GOP members were like Brown, and if the GOP knows it can win without stroking the pro-torture, anti-gay, anti-immigrant, racist, generally insane base, perhaps that will give Obama the chance to work with Senators who are actually interested in governing the country, rather than the nihilists (DeMint, Cornyn, Inhofe, etc.)
...and now maybe the president will unlock the dead-bolted door to the backroom where he's allowed Nancy, Barney, and Harry to hammer out our healthcare.
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Old 01-21-2010, 07:37 PM   #142
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Just out of curiosity, do you consider anyone with the opposite opinion of yourself capable of "reasonable discussion"?
Most certainly. Diamond is, HarryVest is, many other conservative leaning friends of mine and co workers are. Absolutely.

We all know your history quite well on spinning things and ignoring anything at all that does not bode well for Republicans.

Indy has responded with absolutely no facts, just generalizations and talking points and feels no need to explain himself.

So I deemed him not capable of reasonable discussion. Others have asked him for facts too.

So stay out of my discussion with him, Strongbow. Don't make a fool out of yourself here too.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:11 PM   #143
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[QUOTE=INDY500;6627621]Absurd, especially when you figure in inflation, interest and unemployment rates.

I said GDP growth and investment, learn to read.

GDP growth averages 2.8% per yr Reagan, 4%Clinton

Investment 1970s:18.6%
1980s:17.4%

Unemployment, average 1970s: 7.01% 1980s:7.2%
16.1 million new jobs under Reagan, 23 Million under Clinton.
Interest Rates: Depends on what it is for, prime rates on mortgages and credit cards peaked under Reagan, and stayed in double digits throughout the 80s. The fed funds rate was jacked way up in 1981/2 to cure inflation.

Inflation:Yes, it was lower in the 80s than the 70s, but that was attributable to Volcker and Volcker only. He was appointed by Carter with a mandate to solve inflation, and he did by causing the 82 recession. Reagan told us he would have "record growth" that year. No President had much to do with the actions of the fed in whipping inflation.


Only on National Defense could one even attempt to utter this with a straight face. Unless you consider tripling the debt, taking control of car companies, insurance companies, mortgage banks, student loans and the health care system, governing from the center.

Obama tripled the debt? if that were the case, it would be $30 trillion now! It is $12 trillion now, and was about $10.6 trillion when Obama entered.Debt to the Penny (Daily History Search Application)

The auto company bailout was passed in December 2008, I think Bush was the President then! Plus, Obama took a much harder, faster line with the auto companies, giving them a few months to shape up and then dragging them through bankruptcy. They are well on their way to no longer being owned by taxpayers.

The bank and insurance bailouts were passed in September 2008, under Bush, and are also going to be paid back. Ownership stakes that the government took in the auto and banking industries were not takeovers to implement a socialist agenda, they were done as temporary, last ditch efforts to avoid a depression. Was Bush a socialist? Listen to what Obama says. He has no interest in controlling the auto or banking industry going forward, in fact, he would rather not have inherited such a situation.

Student loans: Not exactly, Obama has not taken them over. He has stopped giving subsidies to quasi public boondoggles like Sallie Mae and focused on the direct lending programs that already exist as a place to invest federal funds. He has not taken over 1 private loan company, they are all still very much alive and well. They are just not being subsidized inefficiently by taxpayers.

You're not going to beat me on the facts, so stop trying. These may be a little more sophisticated talking points than you had before, but you still do not explain how Obama's policies do what you say they are doing.

My straight face is still waiting for your explanations.


Gosh, wouldn't it be fun to add up your use of "tea-baggers" in the past few days.

Wouldn't it be fun to add up the number of times you have made yourself look like a fool in the past few days?

But I really enjoy this:

Like to see the formula that can predict with certainty that the economy will not be slowed in 2012 by a recession, depression, war, financial collapse, rapture, Iran wanting to play with their new atomic toys or the world ending per a Nostradamus quatrain, the Mayan calendar. Godzilla & Rodan, or a Hadron Super Collider created black hole.


Looking at history is pretty reliable. The economy is already recovering, and barring an absolute catastrophe like you mentioned above, will be growing at a pretty good clip. We do not have the kind of structural inflation that led to our last double dip recession, and the pent up demand is there like never before. Maybe I should not have said mathematical certainty, but all indicators point positive for the next couple years.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:18 PM   #144
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I would seriously caution anyone without a strong knowledge of MA politics and serious interest in this campaign since the time Ted Kennedy died against reading anything trend setting into Scott Brown's victory. Yes, voters are pissed about the economy, but Martha Coakley had a 20-30 point lead just 2 weeks ago when the economy was no better and blew it. If you blow a lead like that, that is all the candidate and their campaign's doing.
Scott Brown ran against Obama's policies, particularly health care. And the people gave him Ted Kennedy's seat.

Either you're not seeing the forest for the trees...or you're spinning. It's much bigger than Coakley's arrogance and shortcomings.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:19 PM   #145
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I really hate this argument. I've seen very few here in FYM that honestly dismiss everyone who has a differing opinion, and the few that do act this way are hardly regular posters. Now of course there are people who make their livings thinking and acting this way, and we all know who they are, I feel that those that follow these individuals be it on any side fall into this category of dismissing anyone who disagrees with them. Do I think that there are conservatives who are capable of reasonable discussion? Absolutely. Do any of them post in here? Not on a regular basis anymore, and it's quite a shame.
Yes, good point. The conservatives in here think they are the only conservatives that people of differing opinions have discussions with.

I personally have as many Republican friends as I do Democratic friends and I deem about 85-90% of them capable of rational discussion.(the other 10-15% is composed of liberals and conservatives, I know enough liberals with no idea of what they are talking about)

I have never seen Strongbow or Indy500 criticize something one of their guys did, they just make non sense generalizations or repeat flat out lies about Obama and think they have won. My posting history is clear, even these last few days, I have called out the things the Democrats have done that I think are bat shit.

Critical thinking is not practiced too much by the conservative bloc here.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:37 PM   #146
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Scott Brown ran against Obama's policies, particularly health care. And the people gave him Ted Kennedy's seat.

Either you're not seeing the forest for the trees...or you're spinning. It's much bigger than Coakley's arrogance and shortcomings.
No spinning here. Coakley had a 20-30 point lead 2 weeks ago! How do you explain that away?

What state do you live in?

"Ted Kennedy's seat" means nothing Ted himself will tell you that. Ted went out and earned the support of voters every single time, even when he was safe. When Ted died, this became an open, wide open Senate seat and the jury was out anew. Remember, MA did not make some huge transformation from Democratic to Republican on Tuesday, Independents have always outnumbered both parties in voter registration. MA citizens' votes, contrary to popular opinion, remain open to anyone who earns them.

Coakley did no campaigning, she actually went on a New Year's vacation. She had 19 last week events to Brown's 64. Brown got no more raw votes than McCain did in MA, it was just that turnout was much lower.

The Democratic base did not turn out because they were lulled into complacency by Coakley's arrogance. I worked for one of Coakley's rivals and saw first hand how she and her campaign took the seat for granted. Coakley has assumed this seat was hers since Kerry ran for President in 2004, she thought if he won, she would have it then.

If Coakley had been out pointing out Scott Brown's lack of a single policy paper, his advocacy of waterboarding, his plan to cut taxes without laying out what spending he would cut, etc then we would most likely be looking at a very different outcome. Voters still do not know too much about Scott Brown. Other than than the fact that they admire his willingness to EARN, AND HE DID I GIVE HIM ALL THE CREDIT IN THE WORLD FOR THIS an OPEN SENATE SEAT.

Was there an element of sending a message to Washington? Was oppositon to health reform one of his planks? Of course. However, it was not big enough to overcome a 20-30 point lead by itself. Not a chance. Exit polling for important issues to voters has confirmed this. More people cited change, independence, the lack of a Republican from MA in DC, dissatisfaction with Governor Patrick, etc than they did the Health reform bill. Plus, most voters have no idea what is actually in the bill, and neither candidate was willing to discuss what was in it. Most of the dissatisfaction is not with specific provisions, but with the way the Democrats have gone about it, especially the shameful buying of Nebraska. The conversation in the local diner, from the most liberal person to the most conservative person, is going to be negative about how this debate has played out. Does not mean there is not alot of support for the provisions in the bill.

Many independents and Democrats voted for Brown based on the fact that he is a likable guy who actually campaigned and asked for their votes.

Not seeing the forest through the trees would be a claim that you would make if the Republicans just took back both Houses of Congress and were polling high and increasing their voter registration numbers.

The last national election in NY 23, the Democrats won.

To use your analogy, you are taking one little Bush in the desert(Scott Brown) and turning it into an enormous sequoia tree that fits into a growing forest. If this guy shows an interest in the issues, becomes a super star who challenges the GOP agenda of "no" with real alternatives and gets a few like minded people elected in November, then your argument will have a point. He is headed in the opposite direction, and this will not look good in a more sober, calm climate when the very volatile electorate is pissed about obstructionism.

Brown spent alot more time telling us how he would be an independent voice of the people then he did telling us how much he hated the health reform bill. Hell, he spent more time talking about Beacon Hill then he did about Capitol Hill, so maybe he forgot what office he was running for.
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:52 PM   #147
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To use your analogy, you are taking one little Bush(Scott Brown) and turning into an enormous sequoia tree that fits into a growing forest. If this guy shows an interest in the issues, becomes a super star who challenges the GOP agenda of "no" with real alternatives and gets a few like minded people elected in November, then your argument will have a point.
My argument is simply that Mass voters knew very well that a vote for Brown was a vote to kill Obama policies in the Senate.
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:49 PM   #148
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It's much bigger than Coakley's arrogance and shortcomings.


remember, all George W. Bush had to do was beat John Kerry.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:32 PM   #149
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Most certainly. Diamond is, HarryVest is, many other conservative leaning friends of mine and co workers are. Absolutely.
I just meant in this forum.


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We all know your history quite well on spinning things and ignoring anything at all that does not bode well for Republicans.
LOL, Once again, it appears that defending Bush qualifies as spinning and ignoring anything that does not bode well for Bush or Republicans. Since you obviously don't know my history, I actually do have my own criticisms of Bush and Republicans.


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Indy has responded with absolutely no facts, just generalizations and talking points and feels no need to explain himself.

So I deemed him not capable of reasonable discussion. Others have asked him for facts too.
I don't think your interested in facts considering the way you addressed my own post which had plenty.

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So stay out of my discussion with him, Strongbow. Don't make a fool out of yourself here too.
I thought you said you were not discussing anything with him because he was not capable of "reasonable discussion"?
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:37 PM   #150
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I have never seen Strongbow or Indy500 criticize something one of their guys did, they just make non sense generalizations or repeat flat out lies about Obama and think they have won. My posting history is clear, even these last few days, I have called out the things the Democrats have done that I think are bat shit.
Its clear now your making up stuff about other people in the forum. I have criticized Bush and Republicans in here before. Where have I lied about Obama? "Think they have won"? This is not a game, its a discussion.
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