George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'.

[deep]

without being adjusted per capita - show a larger number - not proportion - of blacks than whites. The adjusted ratio ends up being somewhere around 16 to 1

so if that sickle cell disease got on steroids and sent all the black people to Jesus
we would only have 6.25% the crime
93 reduction on police calls and court time
most prisons would be near empty, we probably would have enough government resources to give free health care and free higher education.

 

[AEON]

However, the vast majority of them are good kids who I expect will go on to great success. I can name only a handful that seem to be headed down the wrong track. But here's the thing: I could say the same if I taught white kids. There are issues in the black community, sure, but suggesting such a saintly standard for black boys is frankly another kind of racism.

Sean - I was using the extreme to make the point that in some way - each race is both culpable and capable. Perceptions can be changed. I do not seriously think that urban black men will need to do all the things I listed to "ease the fear" that other races may feel toward them (although it would be great if ALL races were known for those things, but that is my Christian hope).

I am happy to hear (and not surprised) that most of the kids you're mentoring are on the right path.

 

[Jive Turkey]

so if that sickle cell disease got on steroids and sent all the black people to Jesus
we would only have 6.25% the crime
93 reduction on police calls and court time
most prisons would be near empty, we probably would have enough government resources to give free health care and free higher education.

speaking of spinning people's words. But completely in line with the garbage I've heard regarding this case

Deep, consider a statistics course

 

[deep]

any talk of skin color and crime, as justifying treating (or behaving differently towards) people going about their daily lives is just idiotic,
loopy replies are on par and in order

 

[AEON]

If you don't feel that there is inherently something wrong with most black people (barring the exceptions), please by all means clarify.

I do not think there is anything inherently wrong with black people. And I think by getting involved and being a positive role model (which you are doing), is the best anyone can do.

I think we as a nation are trying to somehow understand/solve the racial troubles as best we can.

I think what you said above is probably the answer - time. It isn't sexy, but it may be all we got.

 

[Jive Turkey]

any talk of skin color and crime, as justifying treating (or behaving differently towards) people going about their daily lives is just idiotic,
loopy replies are on par and in order

You're smarter than this, man. Go back and read the exchange

 

[maycocksean]

But even you're interpreting the statistics wrong here. If we're assuming one should be fearful of an individual based on crime statistics, then fearing a black person is still 3 times more rational. We're talking about the likelyhood of a person of a specific race being prone to committing a crime (I'm still operating under the assumption stated above which I don't ascribe to). A random black person on the street would be 3 times more likely to commit a crime than a random white person. The overall percentage of people making up that race in the country is completely irrelevant. Statistics don't work that way. And when we then delve into homicide rates, regardless of the 6 to 1 ratio of whites to blacks, the base numbers alone - without being adjusted per capita - show a larger number - not proportion - of blacks than whites. The adjusted ratio ends up being somewhere around 16 to 1. Now I'm only bringing this up because of the article; really it has nothing to do with the Zimmerman/Martin trial. But pretending a problem isn't a problem by playing fast and loose (and flat out wrong) with statistics isn't helping anything

Fair enough. I went back and looked more carefully both at the quote from the original article and your response and I see what you mean.

Do you discard the premise of the article as whole then? Is the media emphasis on "black on black" crime well founded, in your opinion. Are black people really more dangerous than white people? Would you suggest that they are more dangerous to each other or more dangerous to white people also? And if so, why is that and how can this problem be solved?

Here's my caution. You are an extraordinarily rational person--which I respect--but you understand that the vast majority of people don't live in such a hyper-rational world. Thus solutions need be rational, factual yes, but they need to also consider other aspects of how humans operate in the world. I can agree that massaging the numbers or manipulating the statistics is not helpful. But I also can't just show up in my classroom and tell my boys, "statistically you boys are 3 times more likely to commit a crime than the boys down the road at Eastwood." There has to be something more than that, you know what I mean. And I'm just curious as to what you think that "more than that" would be.

 

[maycocksean]

Here's the blog post I wrote on the "Ground Rules for a Conversation About Race". Rules I'm happy to say we've all followed for the most part on this thread and in this forum.

Here in America: Ground Rules for A Conversation About Race

 

[Jive Turkey]

Fair enough. I went back and looked more carefully both at the quote from the original article and your response and I see what you mean.

I appreciate that you took the time

Do you discard the premise of the article as whole then? Is the media emphasis on "black on black" crime well founded, in your opinion. Are black people really more dangerous than white people? Would you suggest that they are more dangerous to each other or more dangerous to white people also? And if so, why is that and how can this problem be solved?

I discard the idea that black on black crime is anything more than a non sequitur with regard to this case. It seems it's being used to deflect attention from the fact that racism is still an issue in your country. And mine. And everywhere else. The answer to "does the US have a racism problem?" isn't "well, black men are more likely to kill other black men". It doesn't even make sense. I would argue that racism didn't play much of a role in the Z/M case, if any, but at least it started up a dialog. It would be best to leave the trial behind and talk about overarching issues rather than shoehorning them where they might not fit. (we can disagree on this)
Are black people more dangerous than white people? Inherently, no. Is there a rather large statistical difference between violent crimes between races? yes. Is it because people are of different races? I don't see how that could possibly be. I'd be interested in seeing the stats further broken down into income levels. That would be more revealing.
Do statistics show that black people are more violent to one another than to white people? Yes. Is it because black people have some sort of ingrained nature to be violent to one another? I don't see how that could possibly be the case. More than likely, it's because people in poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to commit crime on those around them and statistically, black families have a lower median income than white families.
It's economic, not racial. But the economics are determined racially (and racist-ly). I'm sure if we took a census of all the black people living in upper class neighbourhoods, the crimerates would be indistinguishable from their neighbours.

Here's my caution. You are an extraordinarily rational person--which I respect--but you understand that the vast majority of people don't live in such a hyper-rational world. Thus solutions need be rational, factual yes, but they need to also consider other aspects of how humans operate in the world. I can agree that massaging the numbers or manipulating the statistics is not helpful. But I also can't just show up in my classroom and tell my boys, "statistically you boys are 3 times more likely to commit a crime than the boys down the road at Eastwood." There has to be something more than that, you know what I mean. And I'm just curious as to what you think that "more than that" would be.

Well this is the million dollar question. I guess I would say children in lower class neighbourhoods (of all skin colours) need that extra mentoring. There's obviously some sort of pull toward violent crime that becomes less powerful the further up the economic ladder you go. A proportionate pull in the other direction seems like it could provide some sort of answer... but how do you gauge that? And where do you find all these mentors? I'm not sure I'm qualified to give that kind of advice. I'm not close enough to it to fully understand the dynamics
But despite everything, the boys in your classroom aren't statistics; statistics are in the past. Statistics are has-beens. It's important for them, and people in general, to remember that

 

[deep]

You're smarter than this, man. Go back and read the exchange

that article that you responded to, that Sean posted, I could not finish it. Again, I think it is silly to discuss crime in relationship to skin color of the perpetrator.

I do think the second link he posted, the link to a black kids FB page post is worthwhile in this discussion about the senseless killing of TM.

 

[maycocksean]

I appreciate that you took the time



I discard the idea that black on black crime is anything more than a non sequitur with regard to this case. It seems it's being used to deflect attention from the fact that racism is still an issue in your country. And mine. And everywhere else. The answer to "does the US have a racism problem?" isn't "well, black men are more likely to kill other black men". It doesn't even make sense. I would argue that racism didn't play much of a role in the Z/M case, if any, but at least it started up a dialog. It would be best to leave the trial behind and talk about overarching issues rather than shoehorning them where they might not fit. (we can disagree on this)
Are black people more dangerous than white people? Inherently, no. Is there a rather large statistical difference between violent crimes between races? yes. Is it because people are of different races? I don't see how that could possibly be. I'd be interested in seeing the stats further broken down into income levels. That would be more revealing.
Do statistics show that black people are more violent to one another than to white people? Yes. Is it because black people have some sort of ingrained nature to be violent to one another? I don't see how that could possibly be the case. More than likely, it's because people in poorer neighbourhoods are more likely to commit crime on those around them and statistically, black families have a lower median income than white families.
It's economic, not racial. But the economics are determined racially (and racist-ly). I'm sure if we took a census of all the black people living in upper class neighbourhoods, the crimerates would be indistinguishable from their neighbours.





Well this is the million dollar question. I guess I would say children in lower class neighbourhoods (of all skin colours) need that extra mentoring. There's obviously some sort of pull toward violent crime that becomes less powerful the further up the economic ladder you go. A proportionate pull in the other direction seems like it could provide some sort of answer... but how do you gauge that? And where do you find all these mentors? I'm not sure I'm qualified to give that kind of advice. I'm not close enough to it to fully understand the dynamics
But despite everything, the boys in your classroom aren't statistics; statistics are in the past. Statistics are has-beens. It's important for them, and people in general, to remember that

Damn good post.

I have to think some more on everything you said and it's getting late. But. . .damn good post.

 

[Jive Turkey]

that article that you responded to, that Sean posted, I could not finish it. Again, I think it is silly to discuss crime in relationship to skin color of the perpetrator.

I do think the second link he posted, the link to a black kids FB page post is worthwhile in this discussion about the senseless killing of TM.

Well to fill you in, I was responding to a sloppy statistical analysis and was framing my argument in the way the writer of that article was (and a way that I made a point of saying I didn't agree with). Then you took that and extrapolated something about me believing if all the black people died of sickle cell anemia, the prisons would be empty

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, seriously now - do you really think the leaders of either party really care about the urban black male - or women, or white men, or veterans, or zombies, or anything other than what establishes and maintains their ability to allocate wealth to themselves and to their backers?

I watched Season One of "House of Cards" a little while back - I'm not sure how accurate it is, but it's how I perceive politicians of both parties: ruthless, charming, smart, opportunistic, amoral, and - again - ruthless. Those who try to do the right thing are quickly marginalized, discredited, slandered - and if that doesn't work, killed. Either party would sacrifice the long term health of any group in return for a short term boost in ratings just before an election.

One party race baits and has been very clear that they are after white votes. One party has absolutely used race as a weapon against the first African-American president.

We are watching House of Cards right now, 2 episodes from the end.

I think it's a TV show with Kevin Spacey playing a super villain. It's immensely entertaining, but just an entertainment. It's too cartoonishly cynical to be taken as anything else.

 

[Jive Turkey]

Damn good post.

I have to think some more on everything you said and it's getting late. But. . .damn good post.

Thanks man

Nice to see this topic evolving into something good. It's late for me too. I'll jump back in tomorrow some time

 

[deep]

I am sorry
your last post seemed very reasonable,

I am guilty of not having the patience to read every thing in this thread

 

[Jive Turkey]

I am sorry
your last post seemed very reasonable,

I am guilty of not having the patience to read every thing in this thread

I still love you, deep

 

[Irvine511]

So in other words you both agree.

No.

I fault the GOP for creating various political narratives through which racism -- overt and subtle -- becomes socially acceptable.

It started with the Palin "real Americans" rallies in 2008, and continues.

I also fault the "war on drugs." Nothing has done more to devastate urban black communities.

I also acutely understand how members of a minority feel the need to actually better than their majority counterparts in order to prove their worth to the majority.

 

[maycocksean]

I still love you, deep

Wait, let me get the guitar.

Ready. . .on three. .

1, 2, 3 "Kumbaya, my lord (metaphorically for JT' sake ). . . "

 

[deep]

We are watching House of Cards right now, 2 episodes from the end.

I think it's a TV show with Kevin Spacey playing a super villain. It's immensely entertaining, but just an entertainment. It's too cartoonishly cynical to be taken as anything else.

I really enjoyed the BBC productions,
I did get a free one year pass to NetFlix and I think I will finally buy a 60 inch LED TV this weekend and activate it

I watch too much TV now, god help me

 

[maycocksean]

No.

I fault the GOP for creating various political narratives through which racism -- overt and subtle -- becomes socially acceptable.

It started with the Palin "real Americans" rallies in 2008, and continues.

I also fault the "war on drugs." Nothing has done more to devastate urban black communities.

I also acutely understand how members of a minority feel the need to actually better than their majority counterparts in order to prove their worth to the majority.

That was actually aimed more at him than you. . .

 

[Irvine511]

That was actually aimed more at him than you. . .

Fair enough.

It *is* late ...

 

[AEON]

Statistics are has-beens. It's important for them, and people in general, to remember that

What a fantastic back and forth between you and Sean. Very inspiring. I love when I go away for a bit and find two or three great pages in a row.

 

[tim722]

being a vegetarian is a lifestyle, being gay is not.

i'm sure people know i'm gay, but i can honestly say that i've never felt threatened at all (can't say the same for some of my friends, however, as i know people who have been bashed and physically harassed). but Memphis and i are thick, rock solid men. and we also don't go places where we might feel threatened, and being gay you can usually "pass" if you need to, whereas you really can't hide being black. or white.

You're right on the "vegetarian is a lifestyle, being gay is not" and I apologize. I didn't mean it like that and I understand I was wrong. I can only imagine how you must feel if the wrong group of people realize you're sexuality and choose to take it out on you. It's very real in this country and sad that it is. I wonder who mainstream America has more hatred for. Gay men or Black men?

 

[tim722]

We are watching House of Cards right now, 2 episodes from the end.

I think it's a TV show with Kevin Spacey playing a super villain. It's immensely entertaining, but just an entertainment. It's too cartoonishly cynical to be taken as anything else.

Gotta check it out. I love Kevin Spacey. He's a great actor and has been in some great roles.

 

[tim722]

I fault the GOP for creating various political narratives through which racism -- overt and subtle -- becomes socially acceptable.

I also fault the "war on drugs." Nothing has done more to devastate urban black communities.

I don't see the GOP as creating political narratives to which racism is accepted. I more see the Left as using race as a political rallying tool to energize their base. I asked my black girlfriend about it. She can't stand Sharpton and Jesse and understands their motives. They would be unemployed without racism so they have to accuse it whenever they can. They became rich because of it. She understands their motives and stated that most of her friends who are black understand that Sharpton and Jesse are full of b.s.

Ya the war on drugs was a failure. Free all the crackheads I say.

 

[tim722]

But it's quite clear given the politics that govern the base of the GOP that many people have a vested, political, and monetary interest in keeping black Americans a suspect class, and in maintaining an underclass. That won't change, at least not for another generation, or until the GOP becomes something other than a protest movement against all things Obama.

It's not black Americans remaining in the underclass because of the GOP. It's because of the Left keeping them in their system of depending on the government. Welfare, food stamps, section 8, the more babies they have the more they get. Why should they try to improve themselves and get an education? Why work 2080 hrs a year for $50,000 when the gov will give me $40,000.

 

[digitize]

It's not black Americans remaining in the underclass because of the GOP. It's because of the Left keeping them in their system of depending on the government. Welfare, food stamps, section 8, the more babies they have the more they get. Why should they try to improve themselves and get an education? Why work 2080 hrs a year for $50,000 when the gov will give me $40,000.

Why isn't this true for all the working people whose income is in the 50k range (if you think that the government will hand out 40k per year, a claim of which I am skeptical)?

 

[Jive Turkey]

Wait, let me get the guitar.

Ready. . .on three. .

1, 2, 3 "Kumbaya, my lord (metaphorically for JT' sake ). . . "

hahahahaha

 

[Diemen]

Why should they try to improve themselves and get an education? Why work 2080 hrs a year for $50,000 when the gov will give me $40,000.

Probably because the government doesn't give you anywhere close to $40k/year on welfare.

 

[nbcrusader]

One party race baits and has been very clear that they are after white votes. One party has absolutely used race as a weapon against the first African-American president.

I know this fits the current narrative of the left, but I think you've mixed up the parties here. When universal health care was proposed in the 90's, opposition was not labeled as "sexist" because the most vocal proponent was Hillary Clinton.

For the current administration, opposition to major legislation inevitably gets tagged as racist by some leader on the left. The weapon here is meant to silence valid criticism/debate of political policy.