George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'.

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Perhaps you could think of more controversial title next time, deep? :wink:
 
"A car parked in front of our house a few nights ago -- one we haven't seen before. We could not see in the dark. I promptly locked the doors, walked out to the car, asked the gentleman to roll down his window and told him to please take no offense, but we've had some break-ins in the area recently and I was going to have to ask him to move along. He moved along. (Not that I think it matters, but he was white.)

Two weeks ago someone from the neighborhood watch was out when a loud BANG went off. A guy was walking around in the neighborhood who wasn't from around here, and the neighborhood watch guy called out to him and questioned him. A car sped up and the guy got in and drove away. I don't think our neighborhood watch guy was wrong for questioning somebody who was lurking in the shadows in the aftermath of a loud gunshot-like sound."

This is kinda the thing. At what point can a black person be thought of as 'suspicious' by a non black and it not automatically be labelled as racist.
I was "profiled" just last week. I'm 33, but have been told more than once that I look much younger; early twenties even. I was in a fancy-pants furniture store that I just happened to be walking past on my way home from the auto parts store. Saw some nice looking stuff in the window, so I thought I'd have a peek (turns out I couldn't afford any of it anyway...jeez!). But guess who got followed all around the store by the upper middle aged store owner? Had I been black, should I have taken the "it's because I'm black" offense? More likely, it's because I appeared to be younger than the usual hoity-toity clientele.
About 10 years ago, I used to help a friend with his landscaping business. He was notorious for being late and one morning I found myself sitting in my car at 9 in the morning for about an hour waiting for him to show up out front of the property we were working on. A middle aged white man knocked on my window and rather rudely asked me what I was doing and that I wasn't allowed to sit there. After explaining the situation, he reluctantly decided I could stay; but remained suspicious. I assume he continued watching me until my friend showed up. Again, had I been black, could he have not done the same thing without being accused of racism?
My point is, what situation like these or like the one being discussed at length in the last thread could a black person be thought of as "suspicious", while satisfying your criteria for racism not being involved?
 
maycocksean said:
You know what would really support your point of view? Show me a recent case where a white man was accused of killing a black man and was convicted. Or better yet, a case besides the OJ Exception where a black man was accused of killing a white person but was acquitted.
Click to expand...

I suppose I don't have an example on hand - but I do no see how the jury is expected to give a verdict based on that. This point (which may be valid) has nothing to do with the events of this particular case.
 
I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
 
AEON said:
I would be surprised based on the evidence - but not surprised based on the politics.
Click to expand...

So you would assume the jury had been swayed by politics and that they got the verdict wrong.

I personally see the evidence as murky, that a lot weighs on the word of the guy who survived, that the way the defense described things playing out is certainly possible, but not the only possibility. I understand why the jury made the decision they did, and perhaps they couldn't have made any other decision under the law--though I think it's quite a stretch to insist on that. So I don't think that my feeling that they got the verdict--for manslaughter, mind you, not murder 2--wrong is somehow of less value than what you would have thought had the jury gone the other way. I think I have made clear that I feel this way irregardless of race. What I've been trying to do, and what you seem to be resolutely unwilling or unable to see why this verdict was upsetting to a lot of people of color. I will be frank and add that your condescending almost paternal attitude regarding this subject is rather aggravating. And I say that as someone who generally admires your tone and conduct in most discussions on this forum. And I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not prone to get testy, so you can either chalk it up to this being a sensitive subject for me or that maybe your empathy is a little less than it ordinarily is on this issue (likely it's a bit of both).
 
Jive Turkey said:
I don't think it's very realistic to think white men don't get convicted of killing black men or that black men are never acquitted of killing white men.

It wasn't difficult to find this

Life sentence in Mississippi hate-crime case - CNN.com

Or the eerily similar:

Roderick Scott Trial: What’s Wrong with New York?�|�The Martialist
Click to expand...


Wow, now that second article is good. There are some key differences (such as the fact that Trayvon wasn't actually committing a crime) but if I were a conservative annoyed by all the keening on the left about the Zimmerman acquittal this is the story I'd be passing around on Facebook. I find that most people are misunderstanding where the frustration over the verdict is coming from and that is why a story like this isn't making the rounds. And really that's the point I've been trying rather fruitlessly to get across. Let me be clear, I wasn't actually suggesting that white men are NEVER convicted of killing a black person (believe it or not I understand we're not living in Mississippi in 1923) or that a black man is ALWAYS convicted of killing a white person. I knew that there had to be cases where those very things happened, but my point was that many of the white people who can't seem to understand why so many people in the black community have a hard time accepting that "justice was done" don't understand the narrative that seems to us to be playing out. And these Facebook pass-arounds of competing narratives of black folks killing white people (and then summarily being shipped off to prison as they should be) does nothing to ameliorate this narrative. That second article, and even the first one to a degree, though begins to undermine the narrative that justice system is stacked against blacks in this country.

Bonus points that the article comes from a very right-leaning source! :wink:
 
I guess my issue isn't the pointing out that institutional racism is still very much a problem (among other kinds), but that maybe this isn't the case to be using as an example. It seems that, with the massive amount of exposure, the Martin/Zimmerman case is being piggybacked for a cause... and I can get that to a degree... but I also feel it cheapens the message (maybe that's not the right way to word it, but I think you'll know what I mean). At the beginning of the whole ordeal, it seemed it might fit, but as things played out, it became obvious that it wasn't what it was originally billed as. But it's being ridden as if it were.
And for what it's worth, I agree that the facebook pass-around pissing contests are completely ignorant. But the Roderick Scott case is almost as analogous a comparison as one could ask for
 
Jive Turkey said:
I guess my issue isn't the pointing out that institutional racism is still very much a problem (among other kinds), but that maybe this isn't the case to be using as an example. It seems that, with the massive amount of exposure, the Martin/Zimmerman case is being piggybacked for a cause...
Click to expand...

Maybe by Al Sharpton :rolleyes: but I don't get that sense from Trayvon's parents.

I'm not yet convinced that this isn't the case to use as an example. I find that people have extremely different responses to the facts that were presented at trial and to suggest that's only because of the media "riling" up the black folk doesn't seem fair.
 
maycocksean said:
What I've been trying to do, and what you seem to be resolutely unwilling or unable to see why this verdict was upsetting to a lot of people of color. I will be frank and add that your condescending almost paternal attitude regarding this subject is rather aggravating. And I say that as someone who generally admires your tone and conduct in most discussions on this forum. And I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not prone to get testy, so you can either chalk it up to this being a sensitive subject for me or that maybe your empathy is a little less than it ordinarily is on this issue (likely it's a bit of both).
Click to expand...

Yes, over the years you've proven yourself (to me) to be very calm and patient - so I do apologize if my tone has come across as paternal and condescending. Perhaps I was enjoying playing Law and Order for a moment - and this subject is too sensitive for that. Truly, I'm sorry for that. It was not intentional.

I think you've shed some light on the struggles of the modern African America community. I agree with what you're saying and I follow your reasoning. Where you're losing me is this:

1) I don't think there was enough evidence to convict Zimmerman (and many posters in here seem to agree with that)
2) I agree, and doing my best empathize, with the struggles of present day African Americans - you've really helped me see that and I thank you for that.
3) However - that agreement and empathy does not extend to needing Zimmerman to be convicted of a crime when there was not enough evidence to convict him. We can't solve injustice with more injustice.

That's where I'm at - but I could be convinced otherwise if new evidence is brought to light.

Thank you for your patience with me. Please try and I understand that I am listening to you - and your blue words on this blue screen mean something to me.
 
maycocksean said:
Maybe by Al Sharpton :rolleyes: but I don't get that sense from Trayvon's parents.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately it's grown into something bigger than Trayvon's parents. But I would say that perhaps the parents of a murdered son wouldn't be the most objective on the subject and understandably so. It's harsh, but I certainly sympathize with them; My Mom's Brother was murdered at a young age (17 too, if I'm not mistaken). Completely different circumstance, but it terribly affected by Grandparents for the rest of their lives.
 
Irvine511 said:
I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
Click to expand...

This is a straight-forward an honest post.

You have to excuse me, but I laughed at the "redneck" comment - while I've never met you, the image I have had in my mind over the years was anything but a "redneck"
 
maycocksean said:
Good rules. I know I haven't always followed all of them and for that I apologize (looking at you AEON). I will try to be better tomorrow.
Click to expand...

No need my friend - no need. Your frustration, in this case, actually helped me understand a few things better.

I have a good friend, a fellow officer in the Reserves - and he's black. He's a young LT and I'm his mentor (by rank, not by race). When we've had talks about life - he has shared with me many of the struggles you shared in the other thread (his own community thinking he's a traitor for becoming an officer, for going to college, for living in the suburbs...etc). At the same time, he also wants to retain the best parts of his culture (which he should of course).

Anyway - I do accept your apology (even though none is necessary) - and please accept mine.
 
deep said:
continued
Click to expand...

Trayvon Martin, the man who attacked George Zimmerman, was shot and killed in self defense.

Jury ruled that the black Trayvon attacked the white George. The white George, with injuries to his nose and back of his head, shot the black Trayvon in self defense.

President Obama seeks calm.
 
Irvine511 said:
I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.
Click to expand...


So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.
 
Irvine511 said:
Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
Click to expand...

I'm sure you've been profiled as a gay man and didn't even know it. It just shows how far we've come to accepting the gay lifestyle that you don't even recognize it.
 
Btw. Sorry for jumping on Pres Obama the other day. I only seen a few soundbites of his speech on the news and figured it was an answer to one specific question. Didn't realize it was a 17 min speech. The news kept showing the same 4 sentences. I just recently watched it and thought it was very good.
 
Jive Turkey said:
I was "profiled" just last week. I'm 33, but have been told more than once that I look much younger; early twenties even. I was in a fancy-pants furniture store that I just happened to be walking past on my way home from the auto parts store. Saw some nice looking stuff in the window, so I thought I'd have a peek (turns out I couldn't afford any of it anyway...jeez!). But guess who got followed all around the store by the upper middle aged store owner? Had I been black, should I have taken the "it's because I'm black" offense? More likely, it's because I appeared to be younger than the usual hoity-toity clientele.
About 10 years ago, I used to help a friend with his landscaping business. He was notorious for being late and one morning I found myself sitting in my car at 9 in the morning for about an hour waiting for him to show up out front of the property we were working on. A middle aged white man knocked on my window and rather rudely asked me what I was doing and that I wasn't allowed to sit there. After explaining the situation, he reluctantly decided I could stay; but remained suspicious. I assume he continued watching me until my friend showed up. Again, had I been black, could he have not done the same thing without being accused of racism?
My point is, what situation like these or like the one being discussed at length in the last thread could a black person be thought of as "suspicious", while satisfying your criteria for racism not being involved?
Click to expand...

that happened to me not long ago too - i went into a cosmetics store for my annual stock-up lol and there was a Romany traveller family in there and things were pretty chaotic, and then they left and i was just in my own little world looking at pretty nail varnishes and things and filling up my basket, and all of a sudden this shop assistant comes and stands right next to me, shoulder to shoulder, staring at me and watching my every move, and she sticks to me like glue and follows me around the whole fecking store lol and then i realised she must've thought i was one of the Romany ladies (i get mistaken for a lot of things depending on where i am and what the context is lol) and i was kind of pissed off and angry at how rude she was - she was obnoxious actually! i wanted to storm out of the shop, but thought fuck it, i will do what i came here to do and more lol so i held my head high, picked up a years supply of expensive cosmetics, went to the counter, and whipped out my store loyalty card and credit card lol - the stupid bints were falling over themselves to be nice to me by that point, filling my bag with plenty of freebies - i don't shop there any more...

it happens a lot in all kinds of circumstances and it gets pretty annoying and tiresome... a friend of mine was always getting stopped by the police - he used to drive his dad's mercedes around as a teenager and would get pulled over all the time (he was from Ghana), he just used to laugh about it though because the police would always do their checks and look sheepish and let him go... exhausting though...
 
Irvine511 said:
I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
Click to expand...

when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol
 
tim722 said:
So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.
Click to expand...

Everyone else has been able to discuss this maturely and without resorting to name calling. If you're unable to do that, maybe you should sit this one out.
 
mama cass said:
when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol
Click to expand...

Intense - I had no idea Paris was that bad...
 
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