George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'. - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-23-2013, 12:19 PM   #31
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You have to excuse me, but I laughed at the "redneck" comment - while I've never met you, the image I have had in my mind over the years was anything but a "redneck"

i am pretty much the exact opposite of a redneck. but i suppose the person was looking for a white person slur, and that's what came to mind.



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So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.

i'm not sure what you're talking about here.

where i live, yes, the vast majority of street crime is committed by black males, and the vast majority of victims are black males. setting aside the problematic term of "black on black" crime or violence (as if it counts less), i don't think it's out of line for me to be alert and aware. i also profile on age and especially gender.

however, i don't seek people out and follow them and walk around armed like i'm fucking robocop.

and i'm also aware that if i stiffen as someone passes, i've sent out signals that i'm sure they pick up on. i try to be aware of that, and i'm not sure what i could do differently, but i'm also aware that it would drive me bonkers if white ladies clutched their purses every time i walked by.



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I'm sure you've been profiled as a gay man and didn't even know it. It just shows how far we've come to accepting the gay lifestyle that you don't even recognize it.

being a vegetarian is a lifestyle, being gay is not.

i'm sure people know i'm gay, but i can honestly say that i've never felt threatened at all (can't say the same for some of my friends, however, as i know people who have been bashed and physically harassed). but Memphis and i are thick, rock solid men. and we also don't go places where we might feel threatened, and being gay you can usually "pass" if you need to, whereas you really can't hide being black. or white.




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Btw. Sorry for jumping on Pres Obama the other day. I only seen a few soundbites of his speech on the news and figured it was an answer to one specific question. Didn't realize it was a 17 min speech. The news kept showing the same 4 sentences. I just recently watched it and thought it was very good.





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i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol


exactly. there is a degree of "street smarts" that one needs in pretty much every city in the world. the only time i've ever been actively (attempted) robbed was in Prague (by a white woman, and i literally pushed her away from me as she went for my wallet) and the only time i've seen an organized pickpocketing was by white girls on a train in Belgium.

profiling is a part of that. but we need to be aware of the effects of profiling on other individuals, how the assumption of criminality breeds resentment and anger, and being a member of a minority that's still socially acceptable to persecute and demean by no less than members of Congress, i think i get it, the anger that must come when you haven't done anything wrong but someone is acting like you're about to do something wrong. it's maddening.

but another difference is, unlike GZ, i protect myself and that's it. i take defensive steps, not proactive, shit-starting steps. and i don't walk around with a gun.
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Old 07-23-2013, 12:59 PM   #32
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But Memphis and i are thick, rock solid men.
oh lawdy!!
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:03 PM   #33
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I've seen this raised in a couple of places since this story broke out but I've been thinking about it a bit more.

What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.

Not only would it be terrifying, but would we feel differently if she started hitting him, knocked him out with a purse or maced him?

I understand that the situation would be different in that she likely wouldn't be able to get on top of him, break his nose, etc unless she was particularly strong and he would have been far less likely to profile her unless maybe she too was in a hoodie and he couldn't tell she was a girl, but as a woman, I'd find GZ's behaviour to be utterly terrifying and inappropriate.

And I think that's where my main issue lies - he played wannabe Rambo, walking around with a gun in his pants, with a history of violence or aggressive behaviour and seemingly not a lot of intelligence. He is the reason this whole thing went down. This notion that TM died because he "jumped" GZ...you know, BUT FOR the fact that GZ followed him, probably in a creepy manner, none of the rest of it would have happened.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:46 PM   #34
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1) I don't think there was enough evidence to convict Zimmerman (and many posters in here seem to agree with that)
Honestly, I did not watch the trial coverage at all so I don't have as strong a grasp on the evidence as others might. Perhaps if I took the time to really study the trial I would come to similar conclusion to yours. Unfortunately, you have not done a very good job at convincing me that evidence you've seen is insufficient to convict him. Everything you've shared from what I assume is your more detailed knowledge of the case seems very circumstantial and subject to interpretation. I suppose I could understand why the jury would make the choice they did; I don't see that was the only choice they could have made.

Further, it seems to me that as you watched the trial/reviewed the evidence you felt certain what the outcome should be before the jury rendered a verdict. As you said, if they had rendered any kind of guilty verdict, even for manslaughter you would have felt that they were wrong and had been swayed by the politics of the situation. Both of us had an idea of what we thought should be the appropriate outcome to this trial (granted, you perhaps having a better handle on the evidence), so I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that questioning the jury's judgement is inappropriate. You would have been just as quick as I am to question the jury had they come back with a guilty verdict. This is not about the sacrosanct jury whose Final World must never be questioned. The jury decided what you thought they should based on the evidence; I feel the opposite. It's that simple.

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3) However - that agreement and empathy does not extend to needing Zimmerman to be convicted of a crime when there was not enough evidence to convict him. We can't solve injustice with more injustice.
He wasn't convicted. I think I have a right to disagree with that conclusion. That's all it is; a disagreement. I would not be interested in civil rights charges being filed against Zimmerman--I feel that's a losing battle from the beginning (and honestly despite the DOJ promise to further review their decision, I have a feeling they are not going to press charges). I do feel the family should pursue civil litigation as was done in the OJ Simpson case, and I hope they are successful. I continue to believe that Trayvon's death was wrongful and I continue to believe that Zimmerman should be held accountable in some way.


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Thank you for your patience with me. Please try and I understand that I am listening to you - and your blue words on this blue screen mean something to me.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:48 PM   #35
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i am pretty much the exact opposite of a redneck. but i suppose the person was looking for a white person slur, and that's what came to mind.
Perhaps the folks in your neighborhood have not heard about "cracka"?
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #36
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One of the things that I'm going to be talking about with my students this fall when school starts is how they can be proactive to reduce people jumping to negative conclusions. It may not be fair that people judge you by how you dress but they do, and you have to be smart about it. There is much in popular "urban" culture that I want my students to think critically about and make some choices about what they adopt.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:55 PM   #37
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perhaps the folks in your neighborhood have not heard about "cracka"?
lol
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:20 PM   #38
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Unfortunately, you have not done a very good job at convincing me that evidence you've seen is insufficient to convict him.
Fair enough - I'd make a crappy lawyer. I was just trying my best to put the pieces together. Race was not a motivation/filter for me. For instance, in the second case that Turkey posted where the black man shot the white teenager breaking into his car - I thought he was not guilty (based only on the article mind you) - even though we will never know all the facts when one of the key witnesses is dead.

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Further, it seems to me that as you watched the trial/reviewed the evidence you felt certain what the outcome should be before the jury rendered a verdict. As you said, if they had rendered any kind of guilty verdict, even for manslaughter you would have felt that they were wrong and had been swayed by the politics of the situation.
I only came to that full conclusion when the trial ended -and many people in this forum also agreed that either 1) the prosecution botched the case or 2) there simply was not enough evidence to convict Zimmerman. However - I have also contended numerous times that the concealed weapon laws should be changed.


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Both of us had an idea of what we thought should be the appropriate outcome to this trial (granted, you perhaps having a better handle on the evidence), so I think it's somewhat disingenuous to suggest that questioning the jury's judgement is inappropriate. You would have been just as quick as I am to question the jury had they come back with a guilty verdict.
The point I was trying to make that this was not a slam-dunk case, especially for the prosecution - and that making it into a rally cry of systemic racial injustice was/is misplaced. Had the case been a slam-dunk (let's say a video and several eyewitnesses clearly showed Zimmerman running down Martin and shooting him for no reason), and the jury came back with "not-guilty" - then heck, you might even get boring old me to walk down the streets in protest.

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This is not about the sacrosanct jury whose Final World must never be questioned. The jury decided what you thought they should based on the evidence; I feel the opposite. It's that simple.
Sure, that's fair. But did you feel they reached their verdict based on lack of evidence/reasonable doubt (in their view) - or do you think that there was a racial "filter" in place - something that influenced their decision making? Or both? You see - disagreeing with the verdict because we come to different conclusions based on the evidence and arguments is one thing - disagreeing with the verdict because we feel the jury simply refused to convict a white-Hispanic for shooting a black man is another.


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He wasn't convicted. I think I have a right to disagree with that conclusion.
Of course you do - I certainly don't dispute that.

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I do feel the family should pursue civil litigation as was done in the OJ Simpson case, and I hope they are successful. I continue to believe that Trayvon's death was wrongful and I continue to believe that Zimmerman should be held accountable in some way.
Yeah, I don't know enough about civil litigation (or any litigation for that matter) to know if they have a case for compensation - and a reasonable expectation to win. However - unlike OJ, Zimmerman doesn't seem to have a lot of money to surrender.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:47 PM   #39
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What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.
Then the TV talking heads and Twitter asshats would all be saying "She shouldn't have worn x" or "She shouldn't have been walking alone at night."
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:53 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
I've seen this raised in a couple of places since this story broke out but I've been thinking about it a bit more.

What if TM had been a young woman? A teenage girl, being followed by a relatively burly man who appears to be stalking her in a car, who then gets out of the car, etc.

Not only would it be terrifying, but would we feel differently if she started hitting him, knocked him out with a purse or maced him?

I understand that the situation would be different in that she likely wouldn't be able to get on top of him, break his nose, etc unless she was particularly strong and he would have been far less likely to profile her unless maybe she too was in a hoodie and he couldn't tell she was a girl, but as a woman, I'd find GZ's behaviour to be utterly terrifying and inappropriate.

And I think that's where my main issue lies - he played wannabe Rambo, walking around with a gun in his pants, with a history of violence or aggressive behaviour and seemingly not a lot of intelligence. He is the reason this whole thing went down. This notion that TM died because he "jumped" GZ...you know, BUT FOR the fact that GZ followed him, probably in a creepy manner, none of the rest of it would have happened.
I think in this case, Zimmerman would have had a difficult time claiming his life was in danger or that there was a chance for great bodily harm.

Than again - your scenario does show (again) how ludicrous it is to have an armed Neighborhood Watch.
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Old 07-23-2013, 02:57 PM   #41
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Though I disagree with the conclusions this article draws (and it refers to Zimmerman as "cherubic" and "contrite and mortified," which I think is a bit much), I think it does ask a fascinating question: when racism is latent rather than blatant, what does leadership look like for the future Sharptons and Jacksons of the world? Can you replicate the civil rights movement of the 1960s, when churches, NGOs, etc. worked together across racial lines? When moral indignation at events that are easily-definable goes away, what are we left with?

Shelby Steele: The Decline of the Civil-Rights Establishment - WSJ.com

And I thought this was an interesting commentary as well:
A Message to Trayvon Martin Sympathizers | Romany Malco

I think there are valuable questions being raised here...
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #42
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i am pretty much the exact opposite of a redneck. but i suppose the person was looking for a white person slur, and that's what came to mind.
Could this be guilt by association?
Isn't Memphis a good ol' boy from the South?
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:50 PM   #43
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:53 PM   #44
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There weren't three drunk/high Trayvon Martins breaking into Zimmerman's car. And one of the kids openly attacked Scott.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:04 PM   #45
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Could this be guilt by association?
Isn't Memphis a good ol' boy from the South?

this incident happened before we were together,

but Memphis is definitely from PWT* roots.

being gay saved him more than Jesus ever could.






* - mean humorously and with love.
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