George Zimmerman, the killer of young Trayvon Martin, was found 'not guilty'. - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

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Old 07-23-2013, 01:07 AM   #16
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This article is also worth considering, particularly for those who are absolutely certain that juries always get it right. I'll grant you this, they are better than the alternative, at least according to this article.

The Trayvon Martin case: Race and juries | The Economist
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:12 AM   #17
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I guess my issue isn't the pointing out that institutional racism is still very much a problem (among other kinds), but that maybe this isn't the case to be using as an example. It seems that, with the massive amount of exposure, the Martin/Zimmerman case is being piggybacked for a cause...
Maybe by Al Sharpton but I don't get that sense from Trayvon's parents.

I'm not yet convinced that this isn't the case to use as an example. I find that people have extremely different responses to the facts that were presented at trial and to suggest that's only because of the media "riling" up the black folk doesn't seem fair.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:30 AM   #18
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What I've been trying to do, and what you seem to be resolutely unwilling or unable to see why this verdict was upsetting to a lot of people of color. I will be frank and add that your condescending almost paternal attitude regarding this subject is rather aggravating. And I say that as someone who generally admires your tone and conduct in most discussions on this forum. And I think you know me well enough to know that I'm not prone to get testy, so you can either chalk it up to this being a sensitive subject for me or that maybe your empathy is a little less than it ordinarily is on this issue (likely it's a bit of both).
Yes, over the years you've proven yourself (to me) to be very calm and patient - so I do apologize if my tone has come across as paternal and condescending. Perhaps I was enjoying playing Law and Order for a moment - and this subject is too sensitive for that. Truly, I'm sorry for that. It was not intentional.

I think you've shed some light on the struggles of the modern African America community. I agree with what you're saying and I follow your reasoning. Where you're losing me is this:

1) I don't think there was enough evidence to convict Zimmerman (and many posters in here seem to agree with that)
2) I agree, and doing my best empathize, with the struggles of present day African Americans - you've really helped me see that and I thank you for that.
3) However - that agreement and empathy does not extend to needing Zimmerman to be convicted of a crime when there was not enough evidence to convict him. We can't solve injustice with more injustice.

That's where I'm at - but I could be convinced otherwise if new evidence is brought to light.

Thank you for your patience with me. Please try and I understand that I am listening to you - and your blue words on this blue screen mean something to me.
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Old 07-23-2013, 01:45 AM   #19
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Maybe by Al Sharpton but I don't get that sense from Trayvon's parents.
Unfortunately it's grown into something bigger than Trayvon's parents. But I would say that perhaps the parents of a murdered son wouldn't be the most objective on the subject and understandably so. It's harsh, but I certainly sympathize with them; My Mom's Brother was murdered at a young age (17 too, if I'm not mistaken). Completely different circumstance, but it terribly affected by Grandparents for the rest of their lives.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:14 AM   #20
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I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
This is a straight-forward an honest post.

You have to excuse me, but I laughed at the "redneck" comment - while I've never met you, the image I have had in my mind over the years was anything but a "redneck"
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:25 AM   #21
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Good rules. I know I haven't always followed all of them and for that I apologize (looking at you AEON). I will try to be better tomorrow.
No need my friend - no need. Your frustration, in this case, actually helped me understand a few things better.

I have a good friend, a fellow officer in the Reserves - and he's black. He's a young LT and I'm his mentor (by rank, not by race). When we've had talks about life - he has shared with me many of the struggles you shared in the other thread (his own community thinking he's a traitor for becoming an officer, for going to college, for living in the suburbs...etc). At the same time, he also wants to retain the best parts of his culture (which he should of course).

Anyway - I do accept your apology (even though none is necessary) - and please accept mine.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:41 AM   #22
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continued
Trayvon Martin, the man who attacked George Zimmerman, was shot and killed in self defense.

Jury ruled that the black Trayvon attacked the white George. The white George, with injuries to his nose and back of his head, shot the black Trayvon in self defense.

President Obama seeks calm.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:50 AM   #23
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I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.
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Old 07-23-2013, 03:55 AM   #24
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Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
I'm sure you've been profiled as a gay man and didn't even know it. It just shows how far we've come to accepting the gay lifestyle that you don't even recognize it.
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Old 07-23-2013, 04:12 AM   #25
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Btw. Sorry for jumping on Pres Obama the other day. I only seen a few soundbites of his speech on the news and figured it was an answer to one specific question. Didn't realize it was a 17 min speech. The news kept showing the same 4 sentences. I just recently watched it and thought it was very good.
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:18 AM   #26
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I was "profiled" just last week. I'm 33, but have been told more than once that I look much younger; early twenties even. I was in a fancy-pants furniture store that I just happened to be walking past on my way home from the auto parts store. Saw some nice looking stuff in the window, so I thought I'd have a peek (turns out I couldn't afford any of it anyway...jeez!). But guess who got followed all around the store by the upper middle aged store owner? Had I been black, should I have taken the "it's because I'm black" offense? More likely, it's because I appeared to be younger than the usual hoity-toity clientele.
About 10 years ago, I used to help a friend with his landscaping business. He was notorious for being late and one morning I found myself sitting in my car at 9 in the morning for about an hour waiting for him to show up out front of the property we were working on. A middle aged white man knocked on my window and rather rudely asked me what I was doing and that I wasn't allowed to sit there. After explaining the situation, he reluctantly decided I could stay; but remained suspicious. I assume he continued watching me until my friend showed up. Again, had I been black, could he have not done the same thing without being accused of racism?
My point is, what situation like these or like the one being discussed at length in the last thread could a black person be thought of as "suspicious", while satisfying your criteria for racism not being involved?
that happened to me not long ago too - i went into a cosmetics store for my annual stock-up lol and there was a Romany traveller family in there and things were pretty chaotic, and then they left and i was just in my own little world looking at pretty nail varnishes and things and filling up my basket, and all of a sudden this shop assistant comes and stands right next to me, shoulder to shoulder, staring at me and watching my every move, and she sticks to me like glue and follows me around the whole fecking store lol and then i realised she must've thought i was one of the Romany ladies (i get mistaken for a lot of things depending on where i am and what the context is lol) and i was kind of pissed off and angry at how rude she was - she was obnoxious actually! i wanted to storm out of the shop, but thought fuck it, i will do what i came here to do and more lol so i held my head high, picked up a years supply of expensive cosmetics, went to the counter, and whipped out my store loyalty card and credit card lol - the stupid bints were falling over themselves to be nice to me by that point, filling my bag with plenty of freebies - i don't shop there any more...

it happens a lot in all kinds of circumstances and it gets pretty annoying and tiresome... a friend of mine was always getting stopped by the police - he used to drive his dad's mercedes around as a teenager and would get pulled over all the time (he was from Ghana), he just used to laugh about it though because the police would always do their checks and look sheepish and let him go... exhausting though...
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Old 07-23-2013, 05:43 AM   #27
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I profile people all the time. I'd be stupid not to. Given where I live, I have a fairly good idea of who commits the vast majority of the street crime.

(Of course by far the worst criminals with the most blood on their hands in DC are the architects of the Iraq War ... But hey, at least they didn't shoot someone over an iPhone)

I've never been mugged, but someone did rip my iPhone out of my hand (and dropped it, and I recovered it), and it was a young black male. I am more vigilant based upon a variety of factors -- location, time of day, and, yes, attire.

And I am keenly aware that every time there's a perceptible change in my behavior due to the presence of a (likely) young black poor urban male, I am sending out a message that I expect him to be a criminal.

But what else am I to do? I am always keenly aware of my surroundings, I carry a decoy wallet, I take cabs when it's late, I know to put my phone away when the train is stopped, and I spend $40 a month on ADT. I look my neighbors in the eye, I smile and say good morning to everyone, we go to community association meetings.

Unlike Mr Zimmerman, I am not armed. I do not drive around like batman and look for crime. I do not stalk and then follow people.

Unlike Trayvon, I do not know what it feels like to be profiled. I've had a slur thrown at me -- "redneck" and "fucking gringo" (surprisingly, no "faggot" -- but no one assumes that my existence is a threat to theirs. Ever.
when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol
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Old 07-23-2013, 06:25 AM   #28
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So you profile white people?? You said you profile people all the time who commit the vast majority of street crime. Obviously you would never profile a black person as a criminal as you're past posts boasts. So you only profile a white person as a criminal. What a racist.
Everyone else has been able to discuss this maturely and without resorting to name calling. If you're unable to do that, maybe you should sit this one out.
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Old 07-23-2013, 08:50 AM   #29
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:58 AM   #30
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when i lived in Paris, i had to learn how to be street smart pretty quickly, especially when on the underground - mostly i would observe people's behaviour and try to be aware of everything that was going on around me, while looking nonchalant, oblivious, and avoiding any eye contact whatsoever - managed to get out of a few sticky situations that way - the most dramatic was narrowly avoiding being tear-gassed and mugged on a metro carriage seconds before the train pulled away - a gang of lads seemed to be making their way along the train through the carriages, gassing and trying to mug people - the train stopped at a station and they walked thru into my carriage and sat down, surrounding a very smartly dressed Parisian lady and one suddenly reached out and tried to snatch her necklace - she was incredibly cool - she just batted his hand away and said "it's not gold" lol, but then i noticed the smell of gas and saw another in their group had started spraying gas under the seat just as the train doors closed and was about to move away, so i thought ohhh fuuuuuck and pulled the emergency stop and jumped off the train - then got chased by them through the underground for about 10 minutes - never ran so fast in my life lol

i experienced some kind of hassle from pretty much every nationality there - and the guys on the train were French but high as kites and very very rough! needed eyes in the back of my head in Paris just to survive unscathed lol
Intense - I had no idea Paris was that bad...
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