Gaddafi 'may have fled Libya' as Tripoli burns - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

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Old 03-04-2011, 06:16 PM   #76
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Wouldn't most libertarians want us to continue to stay out of it?


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Just to name a few:

1. We're not the World Police. Carrying ourselves as if we are is bound to create resentment among other nations.
2. It's not always as clear cut as good vs. bad. Some people who might appear to be the victims, or strategically important for the US to assist, may turn out to come back and bite us in the ass. (for example, the Mujahadin, Saddam Hussein, etc)
3. The cost of sending our military around the world at every request would be staggering.
The same goes for Europe, but today the news reported that 3 Dutch militaries are captured in Libya. Now Khadaffi accuses Holland of espionage:

Dutch in Libya: Kadafi loyalists hold three Dutch military personnel - latimes.com

Still trying to mingle so that Royal Dutch Shell can drill the oil, filthy hypocrites, because Shell and some Irish and Italian oil companies worked together with Khadaffi in the past to drill for oil in Libiya. Khadaffi earned much 'oil euros' for that. You can say that the EU is partly responsible for holding Khadaffi in power all these years!
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:32 PM   #77
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Rebels retreat from Libyan oil port amid barrage

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RAS LANOUF, Libya – With fierce barrages of tank and artillery fire, Moammar Gadhafi's loyalists threw rebels into a frantic retreat from a strategic oil port Thursday in a counteroffensive that reversed the opposition's advance toward the capital of Tripoli and now threatens its positions in the east.

The rout came as the U.S. director of national intelligence stressed that Gadhafi's military was stronger than it has been described and said that "in the longer term ... the regime will prevail." President Barack Obama has called on Gadhafi to step down, and the White House later distanced Obama from the director's assessment.

Hundreds of rebels in cars and trucks mounted with machine guns sped eastward on the Mediterranean coastal road in a seemingly disorganized flight from Ras Lanouf as an overwhelming force of rockets and shells pounded a hospital, mosque and other buildings in the oil complex. Doctors and staff at the hospital were hastily evacuated along with wounded from fighting from the past week.

The opposition, however, made some diplomatic gains. France became the first country to recognize the rebels' eastern-based governing council, and an ally of President Nicolas Sarkozy said his government was planning "targeted operations" to defend civilians if the international community approves. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said she would meet with opposition leaders in the U.S., Egypt and Tunisia.

In Tripoli, Gadhafi's son Seif al-Islam vowed to retake the eastern half of the country, which has been in opposition hands since early in the 3-week-old uprising.

"I have two words to our brothers and sisters in the east: We're coming," he told a cheering crowd of young supporters. The son depicted Libyans in the east as being held "hostage" by terrorists.

Gadhafi's government sent a text message to Tripoli residents, warning imams at mosques against allowing protests after Friday prayers. The message quoted Saudi cleric Sheik Saleh Fawzan, a member of the Saudi Supreme Scholars Council, as saying it was "unacceptable" for any imam "who incites people (or) causes disturbances of the society in any mosque."

There were demonstrations after prayers for the past two Fridays, and militiamen used tear gas and live ammunition to disperse the crowds who had gathered in mosques. There were an undetermined number of deaths after the Feb. 25 demonstrations.

The retreat was a heavy blow for the ragtag rebel forces of armed civilians and mutinous army units that only days before had confidently charged west, boasting they would march the hundreds of miles (kilometers) to "liberate" Tripoli.

There were no concrete signs of Western moves toward military assistance that the opposition has been pleading for. A rebel spokesman went beyond repeated calls for a no-fly zone to prevent Gadhafi's air force from harrying opposition fighters and said the West should carry out direct strikes against regime troops.

"We have requested for all steps to be taken to protect the Libyan people. We believe the U.N. can do that. The bombardment of mercenaries and Gadhafi troop camps are among our demands," Abdel-Hafidh Ghoga, a spokesman of the governing council, told reporters in the opposition's eastern bastion of Benghazi.

The rebel capture of Ras Lanouf a week ago had been a major victory as they pushed along Libya's long Mediterranean coastline toward Tripoli, in the far west of Libya. A day after seizing it, their forces charged farther ahead, reaching the outskirts of Sirte, Gadhafi's hometown and a stronghold in the center of the country.

They were met there by a heavy counterattack that in the past week steadily pushed them back toward Ras Lanouf, 380 miles (615 kilometers) east of Tripoli, even as the rebels tried to build supply lines to keep up momentum.

The regime's offensive appeared to build in force. On Thursday morning, rebels were bringing in heavier weapons such as multiple-rocket launcher trucks and small tanks to the front lines just west of Ras Lanouf. But they came under a powerful barrage of shelling that pushed them back along the flat, desert scrubland into the tiny oil port.

A torrent of artillery and tank shells pounded around the facilities and the adjacent residential areas — long deserted amid the fighting.

Akram al-Zwei, an opposition leader in nearby Ajdabiya, said gunboats off shore joined the bombardment, though that could not be independently confirmed. He said four battalions of pro-Gadhafi troops were involved in the assault, battling the opposition's civilian militias and an eastern-based special commando unit, the Saiqa 36 Battalion, that had joined the rebellion.

Rebels fought back with rocket fire and anti-aircraft guns. But the fighters, mostly armed with assault rifles, appeared outgunned. "We don't have any heavy weapons," shouted one fighter, named Ali.

By the afternoon, many rebels were speeding east from Ras Lanouf in a frantic evacuation, most converging on the opposition-held oil port of Brega and Ajdabiya, 100 miles (160 kilometers) away. "Everyone just started leaving. It's not organized," said one retreating fighter. "The weapons we have just don't reach them."

Ras Lanouf's main hospital was hit by artillery or an airstrike, and the rebels pulled their staff out and evacuated patients to Brega and Ajdabiya, said Gebril Hewada, a doctor on the opposition's health committee in Benghazi, Libya's second-largest city.

At least four rebel fighters were killed, 35 wounded and 65 missing in the fighting, according to doctors in Brega.

It was not clear whether government forces completely held Ras Lanouf. Al-Zwei and Ghoga, the opposition spokesman, claimed it remained in rebel hands.

A rebel fighter who fled the city after nightfall said it still had not fallen.

"They are still bombing it from the air, the sea and with rockets, but the ground forces have not come in," said Mohammed el-Gheriani, carrying a Kalashnikov rifle.

But it appeared that Brega, 70 miles (116 kilometers) farther east, could also be under threat. During the day, a warplane struck an empty area in Brega, which has also largely been evacuated of residents and personnel.

"We need help from the international community, but we just hear promises," said Mohammed Ali al-Zwei, a 48-year-old rebel fighter. "They are doing nothing."

Taking back Ras Lanouf would be a major victory for Gadhafi, pushing his zone of control farther along the coast. His regime has also claimed a victory in the west, saying Wednesday it recaptured Zawiya, the closest rebel-held city to the capital, after a six-day siege. Western journalists in Tripoli were taken late Wednesday to a stadium on the outskirts of Zawiya that was filled with Gadhafi loyalists waving green flags and launching fireworks. But the journalists were not allowed to visit Zawiya's main square, and the extent of government control was not known in the city, located on Tripoli's western doorstep.

Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Qaid reiterated the government's claim Thursday, reading a military statement that Zawiya had been recaptured at 11 a.m. Wednesday and journalists would be taken Friday to visit the city.

"Now the forces are cleaning the city of the extremist armed militants," Qaid told reporters. He said "the security forces and civilians" had seized weapons and ammunition, including anti-aircraft guns, mortar shells and anti-tank missiles.

At a U.S. Senate hearing, Director of National Intelligence James Clapper said there was no indication that Gadhafi would step down and offer a speedy resolution to the crisis.

"Gadhafi is in this for the long haul," he said. "From all evidence that we have ... he appears to be hunkering down for the duration."

Pressed on which side had the momentum, he was even clearer: "I think in the longer term that the regime will prevail."

Hours later, the White House distanced Obama from Clapper's remarks. Obama does not think Gadhafi will prevail, a senior administration official said, speaking on condition of anonymity to discuss Obama's position on Clapper's comments. The official reiterated Obama's stand that Gadhafi has lost legitimacy and should leave power.

White House spokesman Jay Carney said Clapper has the full confidence of the president.

Western countries appeared to be growing more open in their embrace of the rebel movement. But they were struggling with how to translate that into concrete support.

France said it planned to exchange ambassadors with the rebels' Interim Governing Council after Sarkozy met with two representatives from the group, based in Benghazi.

"It breaks the ice," said Mustafa Gheriani, an opposition spokesman. "We expect Italy to do it, and we expect England to do it."

French activist-intellectual Bernard Henri-Levy sat in the meeting and said France was planning "targeted operations" to defend civilians if the interim council demands them and the international community approves. Henri-Levy did not elaborate and the French government declined to comment, so it was not clear if he was describing a new, more aggressive plan for intervention.

NATO has said it is drawing up plans for a no-fly zone but would only act with the approval of the U.N. Security Council. Britain and France have backed the rebels' calls for a no-fly zone.

But the U.S. showed caution, warning against a go-it-alone approach.

"Absent international authorization, the United States acting alone would be stepping into a situation whose consequences are unforeseeable," Clinton said. "We're looking to see whether there is any willingness in the international community to provide any authorization for further steps."

Clinton said the U.S. was suspending its relationship with Libya's remaining envoys to the country, although the move falls short of severing diplomatic relations. She said she would meet with Libyan opposition figures when she travels to Egypt and Tunisia next week, marking the highest level contact between the U.S. and the anti-Gadhafi elements.

NATO said it had started round-the-clock surveillance of Libyan airspace, and British Foreign Secretary William Hague said a meeting of EU foreign ministers would discuss how to isolate the regime.

U.N. Ambassador Maged Abdelaziz of Egypt expressed serious concern about the more than 1 million Egyptians still in Libya, "and we are afraid that the tragic events that happened in Iraq using human shields to protect air defense systems on the ground would be repeated." He added that he had "no concrete information" about whether that was happening.

Germany said it froze billions in assets of the Libyan Central Bank and other state-run agencies. The U.S., Britain, Switzerland, Austria and other countries have also frozen Gadhafi's assets.

"The brutal suppression of the Libyan freedom movement can now no longer be financed from funds that are in German banks," Economy Minister Rainer Bruederle said.

The Libyan government tried to stave off tough action, sending envoys to Egypt, Portugal and Greece.

___

Associated Press writers Maggie Michael in Tripoli; Zeina Karam in Cairo; John Heilprin in Geneva; Elaine Ganley in Paris; Edith M. Lederer at the United Nations; Don Melvin and Robert Burns in Brussels; Bradley Klapper and AP White House Correspondent Ben Feller in Washington; and Alan Clendenning in Madrid contributed to this report.
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Old 03-10-2011, 10:37 PM   #78
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I think the US/UN should create a no-fly zone at the least. From what I see, the opposition forces and protesters are begging for it. Ammuntion and small arms for the rebels, as well as body armor and training would also be a good thing, I think.
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Old 03-11-2011, 09:52 AM   #79
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I think the US/UN should create a no-fly zone at the least. From what I see, the opposition forces and protesters are begging for it. Ammuntion and small arms for the rebels, as well as body armor and training would also be a good thing, I think.
The more I hear, the more I agree. A UN or NATO no-fly zone seems like a good idea. The U.S. must only be a partner though, we cannot/should not take the lead.

And, drop aid supplies like crazy--at the borders for the refugees and close to the rebels positions.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:30 AM   #80
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One big problem with a no-fly zone is that it requires an airstrike first to take out the existing air force which often leads to civilian deaths. An AirForce strategist was on NPR the other day and said this is particularly questionable for this situation due to location, it will almost guarantee a high civilian count.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:38 AM   #81
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One big problem with a no-fly zone is that it requires an airstrike first to take out the existing air force which often leads to civilian deaths. An AirForce strategist was on NPR the other day and said this is particularly questionable for this situation due to location, it will almost guarantee a high civilian count.
Very true, but the current killing of the people by Gaddahfi must be taken into account, too.
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Old 03-11-2011, 10:42 AM   #82
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Very true, but the current killing of the people by Gaddahfi must be taken into account, too.
True, but one of his points was that Gaddahfi would almost ensure that the area was packed with civilians and then use it to play on the people's fear of the West. It's a double edged sword.
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Old 03-16-2011, 08:11 AM   #83
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Time is slipping away. If something is going to be done, it has to be done very soon.
What will a siege on Benghazi look like? How will that play out? What new blemish in world history awaits us around the bend?

Is an airstrike really necessary to establish air-superiority? If it is necessary, it should be done ASAP and with the element of surprise. No warning. No public announcement of international consensus. Just do it. (but is it reallllly necessary?)

What options other than a no-fly zone?
I read that France suggested a "no-go" zone.
But, it's likely you can't have the latter without the former.

Or, is there an appetite for this? Is there a growing feeling that the rebellion will fail, and that maybe we should let it fail?

.............

The scene in Benghazi was joyful.
Its citizens had formed a government in spite of the mad-dog's continued barking.
They were energetically involved in society.
The full force of their collective intellect was brought to bear upon self-government, and they did it with gusto.


Are we OK with an unhappy ending to this story?
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:08 AM   #84
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It is a bit disorienting to be in a situation where it's France that's chomping at the bit and Washington that's dragging its feet.

I'm bothered by a sense that most of the support for this seems to boil down to an agitated impulse to do something, which is a riskily short-sighted reason to get militarily involved. Qaddafi's gains have been driven mostly by tanks, artillery and to some degree helicopter gunships, not aerial bombardment by planes. If the goal is to ensure a rebel victory--and it seems pointless to get involved if that's not the goal--then it's very likely we'd wind up having to escalate our involvement beyond what a no-fly zone normally entails. Do we have a plan for how to handle that eventuality, and all its potential consequences? What longterm outcome are we envisioning if the rebels do defeat Qaddafi--who exactly are they, what kind of state do they want, how unified would they be once Qaddafi was gone, and what kinds of relationships with the West as well their neighbors do they seek? (Remember how the Taliban came to be, and the carnage that resulted as they sought to consolidate their power.) What if we did keep our military involvement narrowly limited, and the rebels wound up defeated--how would our relations with Libya be affected, and how might Qaddafi use the fact of our involvement against any remaining rebel elements? If the Saudis and Egyptians are so keen on a no-fly zone, then why don't they do it themselves (they've got the planes for it), and should their reluctance to do so tell us something?
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Old 03-16-2011, 11:35 AM   #85
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great questions, yolland.
And the most important question for me is the last.

The same thing happened around 9/11. Behind closed doors Arab governments supported and encouraged the US endeavors in rooting out bin Laden (though they themselves would not get involved,) but in public they put another face. And that is incredibly frustrating.

The Arab League have themselves requested the establishment of a no-fly zone, and with near unanimous consent. But their charter is focused on preserving nations, not the people of those nations; with that in mind, their approval and request for such a zone is historic in some small way.

Still, it does seem to me that since nearly all governments in the Middle East want Gaddahfi gone, some responsible must fall to them to ensure his removal.
But, there are many delicate relationships involved; the complexities of which I won't pretend to understand.
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Old 03-17-2011, 07:57 PM   #86
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UN Approves Airstrikes Against Libya

I yolland's questions. Going in with multilateral agreement makes me feel better than another Iraq situation though (think Britain/US no fly zones).

What struck me on a recent article I read was two different issues being mixed up- the sense that the Libyan rebels were unorganized, and that certain leaders wanted America to start bombing on their behalf.

But the first issue seems a lot more relevant to Libya's future, and it's not something that can be bombed into existence.
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:16 PM   #87
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:21 PM   #88
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Old 03-17-2011, 08:57 PM   #89
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Well better late than never.


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UNITED NATIONS – The U.N. Security Council voted Thursday to impose a no-fly zone over Libya and authorize "all necessary measures" to protect civilians from attacks by Moammar Gadhafi's forces, hours after the Libyan leader vowed to crush the rebellion with a final assault on the opposition capital of Benghazi.

The U.N. vote paved the way for possible international air strikes on Gadhafi's advancing military and reflected the past week's swift reversal of the situation in Libya, where once-confident rebels are now in danger of being obliterated by an overpowering pro-Gadhafi force using rockets, artillery, tanks, warplanes. That force has advanced along the Mediterranean coast aiming to recapture the rebel-held eastern half of Libya.

The resolution establishes "a ban on all flights in the airspace of the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya in order to help protect civilians." It also authorizes U.N. member states to take "all necessary measures ... to protect civilians and civilian populated areas under threat of attack in the Libyan Arab Jamahiriya, including Benghazi, while excluding a foreign occupation force of any form on any part of Libyan territory."

The vote was 10-0 with five countries abstaining including Russia and China, which have veto power in the council, along with India, Germany and Brazil. The United States, France and Britain pushed for speedy approval.

In Benghazi, Al-Jazeera satellite TV channel showed a large crowd watching the vote on an outdoor TV projection burst into celebration as green and red fireworks exploded in the air.

In an interview broadcast just before the Security Council voted, Gadhafi dismissed its actions. "The U.N. Security Council has no mandate. We don't acknowledge their resolutions," he told the Portuguese public Radiotelevisao Portuguesa. He pledged to respond harshly to U.N.-sponsored attacks. "If the world is crazy, we will be crazy too," he said.

U.S. officials have said the authorization for "all necessary measures" provides a legal basis for countries to carry out air strikes to protect civilians from Gadhafi's forces.

"We had said all along that Gadhafi must go," said British Foreign Secretary William Hague. "It is necessary to take these measures to avoid greater bloodshed."

In Britain, a lawmaker with knowledge of defense matters confirmed that British forces were on stand by for air strikes and could be mobilized as soon as Thursday night. The lawmaker declined to be named because the Defense Ministry has not issued official confirmation.

French Prime Minister Francois Fillon told France-2 Television that if the resolution was approved France would support military action against Gadhafi within a matter of hours.

Immediately before the vote, France's Foreign Minister Alain Juppe urged adoption of the resolution saying sanctions imposed by the Security Council on Feb. 26 aren't enough and "violence against the civilian population has been redoubled."

"We cannot let these warmongers ... do this," he said. "We have very little time left. It's a matter of days. It's perhaps a matter of hours. We should not arrive too late."

The resolution also calls for stronger enforcement of the arms embargo, adds names of individuals, companies and other entities to the list of those subject to travel bans and asset freezes, and requires all countries to ban Libyan flights from landing, taking off or overflying their country.

It also demands that Libya ensure the "rapid and unimpeded passage of humanitarian assistance" and asks U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon to establish an eight-member panel of experts to assist the Security Council committee in monitoring sanctions.

Russia and China had expressed doubts about the United Nations and other outside powers using force against Gadhafi, a view backed by India, Brazil and Germany who also abstained.

Germany's U.N. Ambassador Peter Wittig expressed fear that using military force could lead to "the likelihood of large-scale loss of life."

Despite the lack of consensus, U.S. Ambassador Susan Rice said: "Today the Security Council has responded to the Libyan people's cry for help."

She said "Colonel Gadhafi and those who still stand by him continue to grossly and systematically abuse the most fundamental of the human rights of his people."

Gadhafi, in the Radiotelevisao Portuguesa interview, said that he rejected any U.N. threats of action.

"The U.N. Security Council has no mandate," Gadhafi said. "We don't acknowledge their resolutions."

He warned that any military action would be construed as "colonization without any justification" and would have "grave repercussions."

The Arab League has supported the call for a no-fly zone, and Gadhafi said that as a result "it's finished."

The United States joined the resolution's initial supporters — Britain, France and Lebanon — not only in pushing for a speedy vote but also in pressing for action beyond creation of a no-fly zone to protect civilians from air, land and sea attacks by Gadhafi's fighters.

This marked a dramatic about-face by the Obama administration which for weeks hesitated about supporting a no-fly zone, fearing that the United States could get sucked into another war in a Muslim nation.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton told reporters in Tunisia on Thursday that a U.N. no-fly zone over Libya would require action to protect the planes and pilots, "including bombing targets like the Libyan defense systems." She said no ground intervention is being considered.

Michael Mann, a spokesman for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton, called the situation "very worrying" and said the EU was looking to the U.N. Security Council before making further decisions. "We have always said all along that we are planning for all options," he said.

Russia's U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin, whose government had expressed misgivings about a no-fly zone, proposed that the council vote first on a resolution calling for a cease-fire in Libya. The council refused but added a paragraph in the resolution calling for an immediate cease-fire "and a complete end to violence and all attacks against, and abuses of, civilians."

France and Britain failed to win support for a no-fly zone during a two-day meeting of Group of Eight foreign ministers in Paris on Tuesday and the G-8's final communique did not mention a flight ban, leaving any action to the Security Council.


Quote:
Qaddafi's gains have been driven mostly by tanks, artillery and to some degree helicopter gunships, not aerial bombardment by planes.
I believe with a no-fly zone in place, this would allow UN nations to bomb Gadhaffi's ground forces after destroying their anti-air defenses.

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He pledged to respond harshly to U.N.-sponsored attacks. "If the world is crazy, we will be crazy too," he said.
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Old 03-18-2011, 12:37 AM   #90
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"If the world is crazy, we will be crazy too"

a telling statement.
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