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Old 12-19-2012, 04:44 PM   #46
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In the short run, probably. In the long run, unlikely.



Mmph. That wasn't my point. My advice is: don't/never take your kids to see a psychiatrist. In the short run, it's a quick fix. In the long haul, it'll be something your family will be dealing with for the rest of your lives.

But in any case, love your kids, give them attention, work life out with them.

Let me ask those who question me: For how long has the person you've known to be on medication? ... Do they suffer any other health conditions doctors would deem serious, such as diabetes, high cholesterol, or obesity?
You have no idea how much I disagree with these statements.

Do you know ANYONE at all with any psychological illness?

Do you have ANY idea what an impact a psychological 'illness' or 'dysfunction' has on the life of a child? Talking to each other isn't going to solve ANYTHING in that department. Simply because the child won't be able to explain them what's going on. The child is confused, they don't know why people don't understand it. They don't know how to tell what's going on. That's what psychiatrists are for. To figure that out. And when that is figured out, people can start talking, figuring out if the family situation needs to be changed. More/less attention to details, sensory overloads and everything.


The people I know who are on medication for the likes of ADHD are not suffering from any health conditions deemed serious, on your list. At all. They're simply ver, very overactive and cannot focus without their steroids or ritalin. It's their choice when they use them and when they don't, and it changes them completely. Makes them able to go to university, where they wouldn't have even made highschool without the meds.


Medication isn't even in the question here. If it helps, it helps. But saying that attention and love will help kids with psychological illnesses like Autism? Absolute utter bullshit. And FUCKING insensitive and offensive at that. I invite you to live ONE day in my head. You have no fucking clue what it would be like, and you probably would never comprehend it. All the love in the world wouldn't have made a difference, but if I had known in my early childhood what I know now, it would've made a hell of a difference. So I wish my parents would've sent me to a psych way before I figured things out on my own and got my shit done at age 18.


Fuck this thread offends me to the bone. Congratulations. It's not easy to completely and truly piss me off.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:46 PM   #47
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It's a little unrealistic to expect random internet strangers to do substantive research into a topic you just foisted on them not even a day ago. Particularly if you're going to respond to dissenters with the assumption that they simply lack the knowledge to come to your viewpoint.
You're right. It is unrealistic.

People all over the Internet calls for stop stigmatizing "mental illness" as well as start identifying the mentally ill. They take "chemical imbalance" as a common fact, and medication as the silver bullet.

People say they want to stop the stigma? http://www.poynter.org/latest-news/m...ental-illness/

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The “epidemiologic reality that the vast majority of mentally ill people are not violent stands in stark contrast to the impression most Americans get from the popular media,” Friedman writes, citing a 2005 study that showed “39 percent of all stories published about the mentally ill focused on dangerousness — the single largest area of the media’s coverage of mental health. In contrast to stories that discussed mental-health treatment or public policy, those that touched on violence were also far more likely to be front-page news.”

A “wave of amateur diagnoses” followed the identification of Jared Lee Loughner as U.S. Rep. Gabby Giffords’ shooter, Vaughan Bell wrote in Slate in 2011.

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For many, the investigation will stop there. No need to explore personal motives, out-of-control grievances or distorted political anger. The mere mention of mental illness is explanation enough. This presumed link between psychiatric disorders and violence has become so entrenched in the public consciousness that the entire weight of the medical evidence is unable to shift it. Severe mental illness, on its own, is not an explanation for violence, but don’t expect to hear that from the media in the coming weeks.
Free Your Mind. Foist Your Mind. We're here to be challenged with preconceived notions and presumptions, and to exchange thoughts and ideas, right? Or are we to mildly agree on somethings and shut out the unacceptable topics by consensus?

Yeah, I've got a ton load of information. And it isn't fair to dump it all.

But if people want their world shaken and see things differently, well, here's a crash course.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:51 PM   #48
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You have no idea how much I disagree with these statements.

Do you know ANYONE at all with any psychological illness?
Yeah, I do. Or I'm diagnosed. Are you diagnosed?

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Do you have ANY idea what an impact a psychological 'illness' or 'dysfunction' has on the life of a child? Talking to each other isn't going to solve ANYTHING in that department. Simply because the child won't be able to explain them what's going on. The child is confused, they don't know why people don't understand it. They don't know how to tell what's going on. That's what psychiatrists are for. To figure that out. And when that is figured out, people can start talking, figuring out if the family situation needs to be changed. More/less attention to details, sensory overloads and everything.
Yeah. Me. Been on meds since my early teens.

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The people I know who are on medication for the likes of ADHD are not suffering from any health conditions deemed serious, on your list. At all. They're simply ver, very overactive and cannot focus without their steroids or ritalin. It's their choice when they use them and when they don't, and it changes them completely. Makes them able to go to university, where they wouldn't have even made highschool without the meds.
Not going to argue that ADHD medicine are brain boosters for everyone, even those who take them and don't have ADHD.

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Medication isn't even in the question here. If it helps, it helps.
It is the question. It's the question nobody chooses to look at.

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But saying that attention and love will help kids with psychological illnesses like Autism? Absolute utter bullshit. And FUCKING insensitive and offensive at that. I invite you to live ONE day in my head. You have no fucking clue what it would be like, and you probably would never comprehend it. All the love in the world wouldn't have made a difference, but if I had known in my early childhood what I know now, it would've made a hell of a difference. So I wish my parents would've sent me to a psych way before I figured things out on my own and got my shit done at age 18.
I've been through worse more than most can imagine. In fact, the things I've shared with people in the past, have sent them to therapy.

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Fuck this thread offends me to the bone. Congratulations. It's not easy to completely and truly piss me off.
Got nothing good to say, say nothing at all.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:52 PM   #49
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Maybe, just maybe, you'd have a better response, or at lease more eyeballs reading this thread, if the title was somewhat indicative of its contents.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:55 PM   #50
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solemole, I think the issue you are having is that you've taken an absolutist stand - no drugs, no psychiatrists, it's all a racket, etc.

There are people out there who have legitimately been helped by therapy and medications, who feel happy about their progress and their treatment and for whom that has been a life changer.

Why can't you accept that different forms of treatment work for different individuals? Nobody is saying to you that you can't go off the drugs if you think that you're not well served by them. But there is not a chance in hell that you are going to convince me that my paranoid schizophrenic aunt wasn't better on them. Because you know nothing of her story and nothing of her life on vs. off the meds and without psychiatric intervention and support.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:57 PM   #51
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But Martina, how can you say that? The information, it's all out there if you would just OPEN YOUR MIND.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:58 PM   #52
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It seems to me that solemole is speaking from personal experience as much as anything else and that is both a great strength and a great weakness in his argument.

Personally, I'm glad my brother who is a schizophrenic is on medication. Ever since he started taking his meds regularly some years back, it's been a HUGE improvement. In many ways he's "himself" again, a person I hadn't seen since we were both kids.

I'm generally skeptical of zero sum solutions or panceas. I realize given solemoles negative experiences with his own meds, why he might feel that medication is a uniformly bad idea, but I do disagree with his conclusion because I've seen meds make a real, positive difference.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:01 PM   #53
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Yes, I think it's because it's a personal issue. Meaning it's unique to each individual. I for one would never presume to tell anyone in that situation what's right/not right for them. What's not right for any individual, well that doesn't make it automatically not right for someone else.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:04 PM   #54
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Again I am unsure of what your getting at? David Healy is a well known critic of Prozac and it's ilk in regards to what seems to be it's link with increased suicides. He doesn't actually argue as far as I can ascertain against it and other SSRIs use, just that there should be more research into it's risks to better inform and monitor patients. He is an advocate to make sure people are on the 'right' treatment.

The first bit when you are talking about Benzos, cites this article: Biological Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1105-17. As far as I can make out since I can't access the actual paper seems to centre on antidepressants and their sudden withdrawal or noncompliance, which are well known to cause people issues.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:07 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by solemole View Post
You're right. It is unrealistic.

People all over the Internet calls for stop stigmatizing "mental illness" as well as start identifying the mentally ill. They take "chemical imbalance" as a common fact, and medication as the silver bullet.

People say they want to stop the stigma? How can we explain shootings if we don’t report on mental illness? | Poynter.



Free Your Mind. Foist Your Mind. We're here to be challenged with preconceived notions and presumptions, and to exchange thoughts and ideas, right? Or are we to mildly agree on somethings and shut out the unacceptable topics by consensus?

Yeah, I've got a ton load of information. And it isn't fair to dump it all.

But if people want their world shaken and see things differently, well, here's a crash course.
In nursing school at least here in the UK this was one of the first things they taught in the mental illness unit. We also had a week of lectures from various people with mental health issues, including one person who was actively hearing voices, good guy bought my whole class a beer after his lecture.

This is not something that is not recognised at least within healthcare circles...the media is a different ballgame.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:13 PM   #56
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A lot of the anti-psychotic meds have quite bad side effects which are quite well known, including parkinsonian type effects such as drooling and ataxias. But I imagine the sample size for people with mental health problems not on meds is quite small to compare with those on meds and might be hard to determine whether cognitive degeneration could be linked to the disease or the meds themselves. That said it would not surprise me if it was the meds, but whatever your quoting from seems quite vague.
True. The topic I bring up is large and complicated one. For me, it's hard for me to articulate the subject well enough to make a point. In fact, all the articles in my RSS is overwhelming. I've stopped reading it for a while.

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Mental health is a hard area to work in filled with ethical minefields, it's one area where it almost feels like people are presumed guilty before convicted of any crime, when they are sectioned for their own safety or others, but what other way is there to effectively manage those who may be a danger to others? I have never heard a psychiatrist recommend wholly medical treatment by itself and the best effects are often had with combined therapy.
Yeah, it's an ethical question, a "Minority Report"-sort of dilemma. There's evil in the world. Even a rational man could do some sort of unspeakable violent act, and he chooses to do evil. Is every person who commits an unspeakable violence "mentally ill"? Is BTK killer mentally ill or evil? Have you seen MSNBC's raw interview tapes with Timothy McVeigh? He is mentally ill or evil?

In the US, there's at least 2.4 million people receiving SSI or SSDI because they are ill with schizophrenia (or some other psychotic disorder), as I have quoted. Now, how many people in that pool are mentally ill and insane? We have them on file at the SSA. How would you or the government calculate the odds for anticipating the unforeseeable?

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There remains much to learn about brain chemistry and the drugs administered, but I do not see this as a reason not to continue with many of the treatments that do effectively work for people. They can be often hit and miss because it is a truth we all have variations in our genes that make us less or more susceptible to certain treatments and this does not just apply to mental health medications.
The brain is a complex organ. The drugs are administered because of desired effect, but scientists don't completely know how it works. They themselves can't explain the "chemical imbalance" theory. And just because everyone accepts the theory, they still can't answer why the number of mental illness has increased since the advent of psychiatric medication. Does that seem odd to you?

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I am not sure what your aim was with this thread, it seems a scatter-gun attack on psychiatry or meds at least, with little reasoned analysis. There are plenty of issues and problems in the field psychiatry, but they are all fairly recognised by most that work in it.
Yes, it's a scattershot of arguments. I can't coherently explain it all, that's why I'm posting quotes from sources nobody's here seems to read.

My hopes for this thread is mental healthcare reform that offers freedom of choice. My hope is that mental health services is offered to anyone who needs or wants them, but also they may choose alternative treatments, other than psychiatry and medication. Alternative treatments include Eastern medicine alternatives, the choice to stay in psychotherapy and not in 15 minute sessions with a shrink. Alternative treatment for me means basically living healthy without some medical machinations.

I've been thinking about how most people with disability go about their day-- living. My guess is that the disabled all try to make it through the day, some having it harder than others.

I'm going to go out on the limb of common sense to say that the "mentally ill", particularly those on disability, definitely do just try to get by in life. I'll go out on the limb to say that we're too busy on the Internet than to scheme some grand plan of terror and mayhem. In fact, we're too busy suffering; and we're suffering for having suffering. We're suffering from trauma and adversity that has detoured us from a norm of living. We end up being diagnosed from being depression to everything possible on DSM (probably not exaggerating), and being prescribed from one antidepressant to a cocktail of meds (definitely not exaggerating). We're being denied of our original trauma and actual problems that are most likely not due to chemical imbalance in the first place.

But most I've noticed lately is that people lump the "mentally ill"--the "mentally ill" encompasses the depressed, the bipolar, the anxious, the phobic, the "schizo*"... all lumped into one. As if we're all time bombs ready to go off. As if we should be herded and warded off into some camp, like cattle or subhumans.

But whatever the "Other" (politicians, docs, neighbors) may have in mind to treat us, I don't want the conventional methods of meds, electroshock therapy, and hospitalization for treatment. I don't want treatment; I want healing. Healing from healthy living and relationships. Not medication, diagnosis, and isolation. And it is the prospect of healing and its possibility that government and public policy could preclude it, is what concerns me the most.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:14 PM   #57
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Yeah, I do. Or I'm diagnosed. Are you diagnosed?



Yeah. Me. Been on meds since my early teens.



Not going to argue that ADHD medicine are brain boosters for everyone, even those who take them and don't have ADHD.



It is the question. It's the question nobody chooses to look at.



I've been through worse more than most can imagine. In fact, the things I've shared with people in the past, have sent them to therapy.



Got nothing good to say, say nothing at all.
So because YOU were on meds, that means people shouldn't see their psychiatrists anymore?

I happen to be diagnosed, yet I don't take any meds. And the diagnosis changed my life. For the GOOD way. So without that psychiatrist I'd still be lost and confused, and I would've failed my studies and everything else.

So to state that nobody should og to their psychiatrists anymore? Fucking bullshit. Absolute, utter bullshit.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:15 PM   #58
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solemole, I think the issue you are having is that you've taken an absolutist stand - no drugs, no psychiatrists, it's all a racket, etc.

There are people out there who have legitimately been helped by therapy and medications, who feel happy about their progress and their treatment and for whom that has been a life changer.

Why can't you accept that different forms of treatment work for different individuals? Nobody is saying to you that you can't go off the drugs if you think that you're not well served by them. But there is not a chance in hell that you are going to convince me that my paranoid schizophrenic aunt wasn't better on them. Because you know nothing of her story and nothing of her life on vs. off the meds and without psychiatric intervention and support.

I accept other people's choices.

I mentioned to you earlier, antiram, that I'm sorry to hear about your family stories and nothing I say about your family's history can do it justice.
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Old 12-19-2012, 05:21 PM   #59
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Again I am unsure of what your getting at? David Healy is a well known critic of Prozac and it's ilk in regards to what seems to be it's link with increased suicides. He doesn't actually argue as far as I can ascertain against it and other SSRIs use, just that there should be more research into it's risks to better inform and monitor patients. He is an advocate to make sure people are on the 'right' treatment.

The first bit when you are talking about Benzos, cites this article: Biological Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1105-17. As far as I can make out since I can't access the actual paper seems to centre on antidepressants and their sudden withdrawal or noncompliance, which are well known to cause people issues.
Biological Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1105-17

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Old 12-19-2012, 05:25 PM   #60
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So because YOU were on meds, that means people shouldn't see their psychiatrists anymore?

I happen to be diagnosed, yet I don't take any meds. And the diagnosis changed my life. For the GOOD way. So without that psychiatrist I'd still be lost and confused, and I would've failed my studies and everything else.

So to state that nobody should og to their psychiatrists anymore? Fucking bullshit. Absolute, utter bullshit.
I AM on meds.

Good for you, you saw a psychiatrist who pinpointed your problem, AND you're NOT on meds. DOUBLE POINTS. (My saying that you specifically aren't on meds, shouldn't offend you, should it? ... Or do you really want me to say, well, too bad, you missed it by "that much", you really should have tried the meds. I'm applying thought this to you, not anyone else.)
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