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Old 12-19-2012, 12:31 PM   #31
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Hey everyone, welcome to the party! Where were you 12 hours ago?'

Obviously, you people are not going to investigate the facts presented in the book I'm offering with knowledge, and counteroffer your thoughts about THE BOOK.

Since you're going grind my one statement to dust (which I might have not written anyways), I'm outta this argument. You can piss on all you want.

Ridiculous, FYM is one immovable stone.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:44 PM   #32
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:07 PM   #33
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Hey everyone, welcome to the party! Where were you 12 hours ago?'
Come on. If someone doesn't respond within a set timeframe, they're .... what, exactly? The correct answer is either:

a) off doing something else, possibly not involving Interference

b) they had no idea what this thread was about so passed it over, and this morning had more time to investigate.

We are indeed a stubborn group here in FYM, but it doesn't help when you come to the table with your own defensiveness.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:28 PM   #34
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Come on. If someone doesn't respond within a set timeframe, they're .... what, exactly? The correct answer is either:

a) off doing something else, possibly not involving Interference

b) they had no idea what this thread was about so passed it over, and this morning had more time to investigate.
You're right. But it seems I've been getting flip/sarcastic answers from some people. And others seem to parrot the parent thing like an SNL skit. There has been no contribution to the discussion as far as I can tell, except for a few personal anecdotes.

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We are indeed a stubborn group here in FYM, but it doesn't help when you come to the table with your own defensiveness.
Maybe I seem defensive, but I just don't feel like rebutting every "but a parent and a kid" statement.

...

Even though time hasn't passed for people to read into the info I gave, I've already given up they'll take a serious read and do some cross-referencing research.

...

Random facts:

VA recently stopped administering anti-psychotics to veterans with PTSD.

People on meds for most of their lifetime are more likely to end up with Alzheimer's or some cognitive degeneration, and brain shrinkage.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:37 PM   #35
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seems preferable than having them blow their brains, or other people's brains, out because they weren't put on medication.

i'm sorry if you feel contempt, but a lot of what's being suggested is conspiratorial quackery.

i spent most of the last 12 hours sleeping. then i was working.
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:38 PM   #36
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WARNING: PEOPLE TAKING MEDICATION SHOULD NOT STOP ON THEIR OWN. PSYCHIATRIC DRUG WITHDRAWAL IS VERY DANGEROUS. FOR INSIGHT, GETTING OFF XANAX IS TOUGHER THAN HEROIN.



i think everyone knows that you must be weaned off medication, and no health professional should suggest otherwise. how is this the psychiatrist's fault?

further, do you have anything other than big bold font to substantiate the claim that getting off xanax is tougher than getting off heroin?
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Old 12-19-2012, 01:56 PM   #37
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Even though time hasn't passed for people to read into the info I gave, I've already given up they'll take a serious read and do some cross-referencing research.
It's a little unrealistic to expect random internet strangers to do substantive research into a topic you just foisted on them not even a day ago. Particularly if you're going to respond to dissenters with the assumption that they simply lack the knowledge to come to your viewpoint.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:00 PM   #38
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I'm out and about now.

Sorry about your day, Irvine.

Just to quickly reply to xanax and heroin. Simple: Ask a doctor, or a friend who's a doctor.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:01 PM   #39
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further, do you have anything other than big bold font to substantiate the claim that getting off xanax is tougher than getting off heroin?
From what I remember when I was doing research on my paper for this, it takes longer to wean xanax (and benzos in general) than heroin - referring specifically and only to the length of time when you'll feel physical withdrawal symptoms. But I'm not sure you can say it's "tougher" to get off heroin because heroin addicts have much higher rates of falling off the wagon and typically a much stronger mental dependency on it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 02:05 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by solemole View Post
Random facts:

VA recently stopped administering anti-psychotics to veterans with PTSD.

People on meds for most of their lifetime are more likely to end up with Alzheimer's or some cognitive degeneration, and brain shrinkage.
A lot of the anti-psychotic meds have quite bad side effects which are quite well known, including parkinsonian type effects such as drooling and ataxias. But I imagine the sample size for people with mental health problems not on meds is quite small to compare with those on meds and might be hard to determine whether cognitive degeneration could be linked to the disease or the meds themselves. That said it would not surprise me if it was the meds, but whatever your quoting from seems quite vague.

Mental health is a hard area to work in filled with ethical minefields, it's one area where it almost feels like people are presumed guilty before convicted of any crime, when they are sectioned for their own safety or others, but what other way is there to effectively manage those who may be a danger to others? I have never heard a psychiatrist recommend wholly medical treatment by itself and the best effects are often had with combined therapy.

There remains much to learn about brain chemistry and the drugs administered, but I do not see this as a reason not to continue with many of the treatments that do effectively work for people. They can be often hit and miss because it is a truth we all have variations in our genes that make us less or more susceptible to certain treatments and this does not just apply to mental health medications.

I am not sure what your aim was with this thread, it seems a scatter-gun attack on psychiatry or meds at least, with little reasoned analysis. There are plenty of issues and problems in the field psychiatry, but they are all fairly recognised by most that work in it.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:53 PM   #41
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Give me some time to address replies.

Thanks.
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Old 12-19-2012, 03:56 PM   #42
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I am not sure what your aim was with this thread, it seems a scatter-gun attack on psychiatry or meds at least, with little reasoned analysis. There are plenty of issues and problems in the field psychiatry, but they are all fairly recognised by most that work in it.


much more succinctly put than i've been able to string together.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:18 PM   #43
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From what I remember when I was doing research on my paper for this, it takes longer to wean xanax (and benzos in general) than heroin - referring specifically and only to the length of time when you'll feel physical withdrawal symptoms. But I'm not sure you can say it's "tougher" to get off heroin because heroin addicts have much higher rates of falling off the wagon and typically a much stronger mental dependency on it.
The physical withdrawal symptoms are a little more complicated. It can take as long as 10 years to wean off benzos. Stories of being restless, awake, and tired all at the same time, your body deprives you of sleep. The more you want to or fall closer to sleep, the more your body won't let you fall asleep. Stories of hair falling off...

Speaking of molting hair, Stevie Nicks experienced this. She took Xanax to cope being off cocaine, and then took years to get off xanax. “The biggest mistake I ever made was…going to see a psychiatrist” (Stevie Nicks) – Beyond Meds

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Benzo Info – Beyond Meds

The truth about benzos (Valium, Klonopin, Ativan, Xanax, etc) – Beyond Meds

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Fears as tranquilliser addiction rises | Society | The Observer
Barry Haslam, 65, who runs a support group for benzodiazepine addicts in Oldham, once had a 300mg-a-day habit after being prescribed medication following a nervous breakdown. He claims the drug crippled him and stole 10 years of his life as doctors gradually increased his dosage. 'These drugs are brutal and should be reclassified in the light of research,' he said. 'I am extremely mild-mannered but they made me very aggressive and the withdrawals were agonising. I would go out looking for fights; I would punch walls and spent many months of withdrawal in horrific pain. I have seen grown men cry coming off these.'

Abruptly stopping benzodiazepines can also cause fatal seizures. Other withdrawal symptoms include acute anxiety, nausea, vomiting, diarrhoea, insomnia, irritability, headaches, muscle and bone pain and depression. Haslam said: 'The violence these things can cause is off the chart: people become feral.'
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GABA/Glutamate cycle in withdrawalfrompsychotropics–SSRIs,benzos,andLamictal – Beyond MedsAntidepressants cause downregulation of serotonin receptors. In a mechanism of brain self-defense, the receptors actually disappear, becoming more sparse so as to take in less serotonin. It is thought among withdrawal researchers that people who experience the worst withdrawal are slower than others to repopulate serotonin receptors.

In a parallel action, benzos cause downregulation of benzodiazepine receptors.

Relative slowness to upregulate receptors doesn’t mean there’s anything intrinsically wrong with our brains, it just means there’s variability (of course) among nervous systems.

Even among people suffering the most severe antidepressant withdrawal syndrome, repopulation of serotonin receptors probably occurs long before symptoms disappear. However, while the serotonin system is repairing itself, an imbalance occurs in the autonomic nervous system and the “fight or flight” glutamatergic system becomes more active than normal. This is called disinhibition of the glutamatergic system, and it generates symptoms that are awful: panic, anxiety, sleeplessness, and dreadful imagery among them.
This paper explains the mechanism in withdrawal causing glutamatergic disinhibition: Harvey, et al: Neurobiology of antidepressant withdrawal: implications for the longitudinal outcome of depression; Biological Psychiatry. 2003 Nov 15;54(10):1105-17. The PDF is available at Paxil Progress, if you register to become a member first. Registration is free.

Once disinhibition of the glutamatergic system takes hold, it becomes self-perpetuating. The whole question of neurotransmitter imbalance — a chimera of psychiatry anyway — becomes moot. No manipulation of serotonin, norepinephrine, or dopamine is going to help. In fact, it usually makes the condition worse.

....

In the medical literature on antidepressant withdrawal, symptoms of glutamatergic disinhibition — anxiety, panic, sleeplessness, irritability, agitation among them– are sometimes misidentified as “unmasking” or emergence of bipolar disorder. It’s always the victim who’s blamed, not the drug. This leads the clinician to medicate with a cocktail of drugs upon which the patient does poorly, the neuropsychiatric damage from antidepressant withdrawal being compounded. In Anatomy of an Epidemic, Robert Whitaker describes this process as the way many children, suffering adverse effects from antidepressants, are led into a lifetime of medications for misdiagnosed bipolar disorder.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:32 PM   #44
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VA recently stopped administering anti-psychotics to veterans with PTSD.
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Originally Posted by Irvine
seems preferable than having them blow their brains, or other people's brains, out because they weren't put on medication.
Actually, the reason's reversed.

http://davidhealy.org/benefit-risk-m...s-and-suicide/

Quote:
But does treatment come with risks? DSM IV, for all it is castigated, recognizes that antipsychotics cause akathisia and that akathisia can lead to suicide. Is there data rather than just the opinions of a DSM committee? Some of the data has already been posted. The following is from What would Batman do now posted just before James Holmes turned up at the cinema in Aurora (See The Hidden Gorilla).

In the 1950s, the VA hospital system commissioned Norman Farberow to look at rising rates of suicides among veterans. He studied veterans hospitalized for either medical or psychiatric conditions during the periods 1950 through to the mid 1970s. The 3 figures below bring out the findings.


Figure 1 shows a set of fluctuating suicide rates year on year for veterans admitted to medical beds. The rates are higher than national suicide rates but these rates and their fluctuations are in keeping with what might have been expected in a set of younger men. The increases in the late 1950s and early 1970s may mirror the effects of the Korean and Vietnam wars, or perhaps other social factors or they may be entirely random.
Figure 1



Figures 2 and 3 are strikingly different to Figure 1. Figure 2 does not show the expected fluctuations linked to social factors or any randomness. It shows a steady rise in suicide rates in those who have been hospitalized for a mental condition. Until 1955 the rates are identical to the rates found in those hospitalized for a general medical condition.

But as of 1955, they start climbing in an uninterrupted fashion. The rises and falls we see in Figure 1 that might or might not be linked to social factors such as the Korean war are not there. This can be seen clearly in Figure 2 when the two sets of figures are superimposed and again in Figure 3 which show admissions to psychiatric beds on their own.





Why the bifurcation in 1955? This was the year of the introduction of chlorpromazine. Year on year after 1955 a greater number of tranquilizers (antipsychotics / neuroleptics) like chlorpromazine were consumed by veterans with mental health problems as an ever greater number of these drugs were marketed. These drugs were given to veterans who were depressed, anxious or psychotic – they were not as might be thought now restricted to veterans who were schizophrenic.

...

These clinical trial data are ambiguous. They are not good quality data. There is no adjustment for patient exposure, and in this case some adjustment is called for but there is no way to undertake it. There should also be data for suicidal acts during the withdrawal period but these data are not included.

As they stand the data show a statistically significant increase in risk. This doesn’t mean antipsychotics cause suicide, it means that in these trials they caused a significantly greater number of suicides and suicidal acts than happened on placebo.

Although the data are poor, you might have thought journals would be interested. Far from it. They are not prepared to publish, even though this is the best we have and there is not a journal editor who does not trumpet clinical trial data as the gold standard.

In fact clinical trials are close to useless when it comes to suicide. It is easy to design a study of a drug known to cause suicide that would show a reduced rate of suicide compared to placebo (See Healy 2012). Clinical trials function instead for public health officials and journal editors as a bureaucrat’s tool to avoid exercising judgement. When they pose problems like the data here do – better they remain unpublished.
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Old 12-19-2012, 04:41 PM   #45
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The physical withdrawal symptoms are a little more complicated. It can take as long as 10 years to wean off benzos. Stories of being restless, awake, and tired all at the same time, your body deprives you of sleep. The more you want to or fall closer to sleep, the more your body won't let you fall asleep.
Nobody is arguing that at all.

But I'm just not sure what your basis is for saying that it is much more difficult to wean off benzos than heroin. Heroin addicts have a much higher rate of "re-offending" so to speak, a higher incidence of committing crime in order to get access to the drugs, etc. The physical effects of withdrawal are shorter, but the mental ones and the drive/desire to use again appears to be much stronger.
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