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Old 12-19-2012, 04:14 AM   #16
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One, the mental healthcare system has only one solution to mental illness: psychiatric medication. On one hand, it's more economical. Save money from dealing with and taking care of people on a personal level. The rest ends up on the streets, thanks to Reagan. It's also efficient for the doctors to see a patient for 15 minutes every few months, and get paid at least $60 for each 15 min. patient. Their client list expands and their income increases.

Two, if you've been closely reading what I've been quoting from Whitaker's book (BTW, there's much more books on the subject, backed with research and history analysis. Look up Dr. Joanna Moncrieff, Dr. Peter Breggin). The issue is that psychiatric medciation is iatrogenic, in other words, regarding a medical disorder that is caused by the medical examination, diagnosis, or treatment itself.

It's literal hell for one to go through psychiatric drug withdrawal. Most people take years to come off it; and even then, there's no guarantee that they'll be as healthy before they were on drugs. While you're on drugs, you're a mental zombie with complicated health issues, including but not limited to diabetes, high cholesterol, hypertension, sexual dysfunction, infertility. When you're off drugs, at least you have a wider range of experiencing emotions and less of a zombie, and you're fighting to get your 25 years of life back, which statistically you're likely to lose if you stay on meds.

It's a long battle. But for me, being on drugs, I haven't made any progress, and my problems haven't gone away. So if I'm going to be miserable and die early (looking at more 10 years or so), I might as well be miserable and die early without the drugs.

It's a long battle that wouldn't have been as much trouble and complication, if medication weren't started. But it already has been for a long time; so the battle is far worse and dangerous.

If you want to know more about people's testimonies on drug withdrawal, check out beyondmeds.com
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Old 12-19-2012, 07:05 AM   #17
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Oh boy, some flamin' is going to start soon, if things aren't cleared up.
I understand this topic is near and dear to your heart, but this sort of tone isn't helping promote a good discussion. If you want a discussion, you need to be able to accept that people will disagree with you.
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Old 12-19-2012, 08:26 AM   #18
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Mmph. That wasn't my point. My advice is: don't/never take your kids to see a psychiatrist. In the short run, it's a quick fix. In the long haul, it'll be something your family will be dealing with for the rest of your lives.

Thanks, Tom Cruise.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:02 AM   #19
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So hugs will prevent school shootings,medicine and shrinks are bad. Makes perfect sense.


I bet vaccines are bad too, right?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:03 AM   #20
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Thanks, Tom Cruise.
Well they say he's some kind of scientist.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:14 AM   #21
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I'm sorry but to say parents should simply love their children more is a bit naive. There are a lot of parents who don't know how to handle any type of emotional problems. Either they look at their depressed/anxious kids with disdain or they avoid the issue because they don't have the strength to deal with the problem.

That, or parents are the reason why some people have problems. Not everyone is lucky to have kind and loving parents who prepare them for the real world.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:17 AM   #22
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Mmph. That wasn't my point. My advice is: don't/never take your kids to see a psychiatrist. In the short run, it's a quick fix. In the long haul, it'll be something your family will be dealing with for the rest of your lives.
What would you recommend parents do with a child who is exhibiting behavior that typically leads to medication, then? Say, for example, irrational violent outbursts, threatening harm upon themselves and others, and/or inflicting harm upon themselves and others?
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:24 AM   #23
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That, or parents are the reason why some people have problems. Not everyone is lucky to have kind and loving parents who prepare them for the real world.
Not only that, but you may be the most loving, skilled and capable parents in the world and may still not be able to "work out" your child's serious mental disorder.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:36 AM   #24
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What would you recommend parents do with a child who is exhibiting behavior that typically leads to medication, then? Say, for example, irrational violent outbursts, threatening harm upon themselves and others, and/or inflicting harm upon themselves and others?
Hugs not drugs.
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Old 12-19-2012, 09:56 AM   #25
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Wow.

I think it is the height of irresponsibility to suggest that you should NEVER take a child to a psychiatrist. Parents can extend all the love they want but they are not trained professionals and cannot always adequately address the needs of their children. To suggest that a child with a mental illness needs more love is implying that if he or she were merely loved enough by the parents, they would be okay. Talk about a destructive way of dealing with that family.

Do medical doctors overmedicate patients? Yes, I am sure that there are numerous instances of this. Lots of medications are overprescribed probably for a host of reasons - patients demanding them, doctors who don't feel like treating anything but the symptoms, laziness, etc. But to state categorically that no drug that helps mentally ill patients should be prescribed is sheer lunacy.

I have two very close examples to give you. One is my aunt, who was a violent paranoid schizophrenic. She was completely healthy, mentally and otherwise, until her early 20s, when she started hearing voices in her head. Not to bore you with the details, but this is a woman who ended up homeless, destitute, somehow managing to drift from Spain to Morocco without a valid passport back in the late 80s, who threatened to kill me and one of my cousins when we were 6 years old, who ran around the house wielding knives and would run into the street doing the same, who attempted suicide three times including one very dramatic jump off a roof which she survived, culminating in her final successful attempt. She died several years ago when she was about 50. When she was properly medicated AND compliant with her protocol, I would not say that she was "well". She still wouldn't manage to hold down a full-time job for a long time, she still had behavioural quirks that were plainly noticeable to anyone, she would still have a tendency to say inappropriate things or dress in inappropriate ways (i.e. not dress at all), and so on. BUT, she was also functional in the sense that she wasn't violent, she wasn't talking about her fantasies of killing little kids, she wasn't fascinated/obsessed with knives, she wasn't living in the street or peeing all over herself. So to suggest that she'd have been better off unmedicated is completely wrong, deeply offensive and frankly predictive - we know what she was doing unmedicated and we also know how her life ended while she was unmedicated.

The second example, and a far less extreme one is my Dad. He is a life-long depressive person. He's 63 right now but if you asked him he would tell you he'd been battling with depression since his teenage years (at least). He hated doctors, psychiatrists and therapists. Until about a decade ago, he maintained that his depression was purely situational - he was depressed because his first marriage failed, because he stopped smoking, because he hated his job, because his father died very suddenly, because he hated winter and snow, because, because, because. All things that can cause depression in people, but this was a guy who essentially lived in a constant state of depression. He tried anti-depressants a number of times but was never compliant. Generally the way things went was like this: try a medication for a month or two, conclude that it didn't do anything for you/didn't make you feel any better, stop taking it. This cycle was literally repeated probably at least a half a dozen times with a half a dozen different drugs. Same result. Despite his doctors telling him that you need to have certain drugs stabilize in your system for many months before you can adequately judge their effectiveness. And don't think that we didn't do anything aside from attempting medication - my parents have been married 35 years, we have a wonderful family and my Mom is basically as close to a saint as you can get. There was plenty of love to go around. When he felt depressed because he was cooped up, we moved to a very large house on a very large property. He loved dogs his whole life, so even though my Mom didn't want a dog, we always had one and those dogs were absolutely wonderful friends to him and also made him go outside every day, socialize with the neighbours and so on. He didn't like living in the city, he loved the outdoors, so we made sure he could buy a boat and go fishing whenever he wanted. There were lots of other behavioural tactics used, as suggested by various therapists and so on. but after about 25 years of this, my Mom had enough and told him that the kids are now grown and she is no longer willing to subjugate herself to his depression when he was not willing to ever commit to dealing with it. That was a turning point for him. He went back to his doctor, he went to a psychiatrist and he tried one drug, then a second. About 6 months into the second drug, my Mom called me in happy tears saying that my Dad was a completely different man and that she had her husband back. His transformation has been absolutely incredible. He has been doing wonderfully for the last 9 or so years. He is enjoying life in a way I didn't see him enjoy it before. He is spending more time with friends, more time with extended family and he loves his kids' spouses and partners and their families. He is no longer a withdrawn man. It is like night and day comparing him to what he used to be when I was a child. Since solemole asked about side effects - essentially no physical side effects aside from high cholesterol. I am actually not sure that is attributable to the drugs entirely because my Dad's parents both had high cholesterol. To deal with this, my Dad started eating fish 5 days a week - probably sounds extreme to most people but his father had died quite young and did have very high cholesterol and generally heart trouble so he is a bit paranoid about this. That lowered his cholesterol to the high side of normal, so not perfect, but he is managing it reasonably well.

That is not to say that everyone should be medicated all the time. It's insane to take a position that with mental illness, something should be done ALWAYS or NEVER. There is a whole spectrum of responses and treatments there. What works well for one person is a failure for the next. But I am seriously bothered by someone basically taking the position that Tom Cruise holds.
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Old 12-19-2012, 11:59 AM   #26
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I understand this topic is near and dear to your heart, but this sort of tone isn't helping promote a good discussion. If you want a discussion, you need to be able to accept that people will disagree with you.
It's not that. I know they will disagree. But they didn't seem to read my main posts, and just take one line out of the whole post-- that doesn't seem like a discussion. That's nit-picking an opinion--one line at the end of the post, and ignoring the rest of the findings of the book I quoted.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:02 PM   #27
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Thanks, Tom Cruise.
This isn't a Scientologist thing. And Irvine, you seem to be here out of contempt.

Hubbard's issue with psychiatry was personal, because the psychiatry community ridiculed his whole E-meter and personal views of whatever, claiming to help people.

Thomas Szasz was at one point standing on an issue with Hubbard, but he renounced their connection.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:04 PM   #28
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Antiram,

I'm sorry to hear about the stories with your aunt and dad.

I don't know what to say for everything they been through-- it probably wouldn't do your family experiences any justice.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:08 PM   #29
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Hey everyone, welcome to the party! Where were you 12 hours ago?'

Obviously, you people are not going to investigate the facts presented in the book I'm offering with knowledge, and counteroffer your thoughts about THE BOOK.

Since you're going grind my one statement to dust (which I might have not written anyways), I'm outta this argument. You can piss on all you want.

Ridiculous, FYM is one immovable stone.
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Old 12-19-2012, 12:13 PM   #30
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Hey everyone, welcome to the party! Where were you 12 hours ago?'

Obviously, you people are not going to investigate the facts presented in the book I'm offering with knowledge, and counteroffer your thoughts about THE BOOK.

Since you're going grind my one statement to dust (which I might have not written anyways), I'm outta this argument. You can piss on all you want.

Ridiculous, FYM is one immovable stone.

Okay.
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