FYM -- All Quiet on the Iranian Front

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Aaaand once again, US conservatives are getting it wrong on almost every count (in this case, in regards to what the US should be doing right now and their judgement of how it is currently being handled by Obama etc). It just seems to clear their heads by several miles.
 
Apparently the BBC homepage was already green for a while.

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Odd, I was on it earlier this afternoon, before it switched to green, and it was red, as it always had been previously. EDIT: and it's now purple. :hmm: Anyone know if they change it regularly?


If anybody wants to follow actual Iranian students, PM me. I'm following a couple on Twitter right now, and they've been the main sources of info getting out.
 
Aaaand once again, US conservatives are getting it wrong on almost every count (in this case, in regards to what the US should be doing right now and their judgement of how it is currently being handled by Obama etc).

Which conservatives?


(And seriously, I think Obama is doing it right on the election so far)
 
So you don't have anything else to say about it other than commenting about how no one's commenting here?

If you want to talk about a topic, don't be all tsk-tsk that someone hasn't already started a topic or that more people aren't commenting.

This website isn't the end-all, be-all of web discussion or some indicator of how much people care about it.

Start the topic yourself and continue it.

{/mini rant}

Actually, I always come to FYM when something like this gets kicked up. In fact, I appreciate how plugged in FYMers are.

So step off ho! lol. Just kidding.
 
Thanks. I just googled their comments.

The president is right not to call complete bullshit just yet. The Iranian citizens are doing fine themselves.



Yep – he danced the middle pretty well. Letting people know he’s paying attention and concerned but that it’s their issue to resolve is perfect. But there are definite subtle, small signs of support as well. I noticed the State Department is taking credit for getting Twitter to move their scheduled maintenance. That might be/probably is complete B.S. - the online push was massive and its success was pretty swift. But whether the State Dept. had anything to do with it or not, claiming they did is a subtle way to get a clever message out.
 
.
After its fraudulent election, Obama should harden his stance with Iran

by Fred Kaplan
Slate.com, June 15


It's time for President Obama to rethink his policy of "engagement" with Iran. Given the near-certainty that Iran's election was fixed and the documented fact that protesters are being brutalized, there is no way that Obama or Secretary of State Hillary Clinton could go to Tehran and shake hands with President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, much less to expect that any talks would be worthwhile.

...A classic international realist, in the tradition of Henry Kissinger, might shrug off the call for a revision in outlook and policy. After all, it's nothing new or unusual for the United States, or any other power, to cultivate diplomatic relations with illegitimate regimes. If there hadn't been an election, Obama would have proceeded to open a dialogue. And the nature of the Iranian government, which isn't really run by the president, anyway, is basically the same now as it was last week. But, in fact, something has changed. The blatant fraudulence of the election has mobilized the Iranian people in a way that hasn't been seen since the 1979 revolution, which led to the overthrow of the Shah of Iran. The shah seemed to control Iran back then as tightly as the Islamic mullahs do today. The decisive moment in '79 occurred when middle-class merchants—the heart of the shah's political support—joined the students and the radicals in revolt.

What social group might now play the same role that the merchants played then? This is where today's situation differs from that of 30 years ago. There might very well be no such group. Rural conservative peasants form the main base of support for Ahmadinejad and the mullahs, and there's no reason to believe they'll join the young men and (especially) women protesting in the streets of the capital city. Unless the violence widens the fissures in Iranian society to an unprecedented—almost unimaginable—degree, the agitation could simply peter out in the coming days and weeks as more and more protesters are beaten, detained, and even killed, with no effect on the regime's survival. In this case, it may well be, as a story in today's New York Times predicted, that the hardliners wind up more firmly in control than ever.

Yet reports have circulated in recent months suggesting that some Iranian clerics, even a few in high places, are displeased with Ahmadinejad's harsh rhetoric and his mishandling of the economy. Some evidence of electoral fraud has reportedly been leaked from dissidents from within Iran's interior ministry. The supreme leader has ordered the Guardian Council to investigate allegations of fraud—this after publicly ratifying the election's results (without, suspiciously, observing the three-day waiting period that Iranian law requires)—though it may be that this order is mere subterfuge and that the investigation will be just as fraudulent. In other words, it is possible (how likely it might be, no one can say) that the popular revolts might sharpen the fissures within the circles of Iran's ruling elite. Of course, those circles are so opaque that few outsiders can tell whether there are fissures, much less what their boundaries are. Does the CIA or the National Security Agency know? I hope so, but I don't know.

This is a common problem in analyzing dictatorships. In the October 1964 issue of a now-defunct USIA-sponsored journal called 'Problems of Communism,' a prominent Kremlinologist named William Griffith, who had extensive CIA ties, wrote a savage critique of the notion, propagated by a few scholars at the time, that rival power factions were quarreling within the Kremlin. Griffith proclaimed that Soviet Premier Nikita Khrushchev's power was as unchallenged and absolute as Josef Stalin's had ever been. The very month that the issue was published, Khrushchev was overthrown by a rival faction.

Whatever is going on inside Tehran's ruling circles, now is not the time for Obama to engage in outreach. Rather, it's time to up the ante, to make the mullahs—especially those who might be inclined to cast off Ahmadinejad—realize that if they're going to play democracy, they can't rig the deck and violate the will of their people, at least not so blatantly. Some "smart sanctions" against Iran have had a modicum of success in the past: freezing financial transactions and foreign bank accounts; severely cutting back on capital investment; and banning the export of oil-refining equipment, which the Iranians painfully need. The Europeans have been reluctant, out of economic self-interest, to go along with these steps in the past. Perhaps moral shaming, to which they're sometimes more vulnerable than we are, can be piled on.

The problem with former President George W. Bush's policy of "democracy promotion" was threefold. First, it was hypocritical: He supported dissidents in certain countries and dictatorships in others. Second, it sought, at least rhetorically, to impose Western-style democracy without regard to a country's political terrain. Third, in places where a civil society had not yet developed, elections could exacerbate violence and harm U.S. interests. (Case in point: the Palestinian territories.) The situation with Iran is different. The movement for change is arising from within. What sort of politics the protesters advocate isn't clear. And the protesters seem to be more aligned with Western interests: Journalists who have traveled in Iran and talked with reformers say that they're among the most pro-American people they've ever met.

This is not to say that we should send in spies or special-ops troops to provide covert aid to the protesters or their favored candidate, Mir Hossein Mousavi. The discovery of American fingerprints would spur a backlash, raising memories of the CIA-backed coup of 1953. Nonetheless, it wouldn't be a bad idea for someone with a knack for subtlety to probe the fissures for possibilities of new leaders rising to power.

Meanwhile, according to NPR's Deborah Amos, U.S. officials visiting Damascus in the past few days—in the wake of Lebanon's more satisfying election—have emerged with happy faces from meetings with their Syrian counterparts. The details aren't yet clear, but this might be an opportune moment to start luring Syria away from its Iranian alliance. Without its Syrian middlemen, Iran would have a much harder time influencing events in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories.

Obama has backed the idea of diplomacy with Iran because Iran is too powerful in the region to ignore. Ahmadinejad said, after he was officially declared the winner, that his victory was the harbinger of a further hardening of foreign policy. So if diplomacy is likely to be futile as well as unseemly, an alternative course might be to take steps to make Iran less powerful, its rulers less comfortable. Hold out the prospect of normal relations if a new election, or at least a real vote count, is held. But in the meantime, tighten the screws.
 
President Obama wants to talk about Iran's nuclear program. To ensure, it is for peaceful purposes. That's all. If President Obama meets with them, he is critized in the press, if he doesn't, again the same thing.

Good to see the Iranians taking issue with their own government for a change, instead of "Death to America."
 
this is pretty big

could be the start of 'a peoples' revolution' like 79 that threw the Shah out.


there are high up officials that are supporting the other guy

I do have a twitter account and think it is mostly a waste of time.

however, in a situation like this and other repressive regimes, it can be a game changer.

the irony, is that the other guy, is only mildly different that the current guy.
 
500,000 marching in silence in Tehran.

it's really incredible. could almost move you to tears.

Iran / today / Krimkhan St / protest NOW #iranelection on Twitpic

There's a song for this that's pretty fitting:

There's something happening here
What it is ain't exactly clear
There's a man with a gun over there
Telling me I got to beware
I think it's time we stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
There's battle lines being drawn
Nobody's right if everybody's wrong
Young people speaking their minds
Getting so much resistance from behind
I think it's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
What a field-day for the heat
A thousand people in the street
Singing songs and carrying signs
Mostly say, hooray for our side
It's time we stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Paranoia strikes deep
Into your life it will creep
It starts when you're always afraid
You step out of line, the man come and take you away
We better stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, hey, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, now, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down
Stop, children, what's that sound
Everybody look what's going down

The only other time I've ever seen it fit so well is in the documentary I saw about guerilla fighters in Africa that snatched children at a young age to train them to become fighters. It was a very moving moment. I wish I could remember the name of the documentary, but it's been two years. :/
 
the irony, is that the other guy, is only mildly different that the current guy.

If we're framing it on what the U.S. gets out of it, then it's partly true. Mousavi supports the nuclear program. Apparently, 85% of Iran does too, even amongst reformists. Nonetheless, there's been talk of cutting off funding for Hezbollah and Hamas and charting a course for dialogue with the U.S. and even Israel.

If we're framing it on what the Iranian people could gain, it's an electoral democracy (albeit more like a constitutional monarchy, if you keep the Supreme Leader position) and greater individual freedoms.

It's a gamble, sure, considering how often revolutions go off tangent over time, but I'm not sure at all how the status quo is preferable for either Iran or the U.S.
 
^

I agree with you. The unfortunate thing about American mainstream media, though, is their general tendency to label people as "good" or "bad" and the way the story has been presented leaves most people who are unaware with the policy positions of Moussavi or Ahmadinejad under the impression that Moussavi is a straight up pro-reformer, when in reality, their positions are much closer together. But I guess we live in an era of instant gratification, so a revolution isn't worth much in our eyes if it's nuanced.
 
I'm not sure how good Twitter really is as a source of info, there's no verification of stories and what not (granted mainstream press is not exactly the bees knees at this either). Just seems a strange way of getting the absolute truth from a situation that is quite nuanced and at the moment still quite vague. Everywhere seems to be lapping up the Twitter stories too readily for my liking. Though I guess the media blackout in Iran has a large part to do with this.
 
Iranian athletes wear green in apparent protest

By JIN-MAN LEE – 56 minutes ago

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — It was a simple gesture — green tape wrapped around a wrist — but its symbolism resonated half a world away.

Several players on Iran's national soccer team wore the green tape on their wrists during a World Cup qualifying match against South Korea on Wednesday, an apparent sign of solidarity with opposition leader Mir Hossain Mousavi.

Protesters at home who accuse the government of rigging Iran's June 12 election in favor of hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad have been wearing green — the color of Mousavi's campaign — in a show of support for the opposition candidate.

The match was televised across Iran, so the move by the players was certain to be noticed back home by the many soccer fans watching on state TV.

Mousavi's Web site said seven Iranian players wore the bands in the first half, although most were forced to take them off before the second.

Among those wearing the green tape was team captain Mehdi Mahdavikia — one of Iran's biggest sports heroes for a goal he scored to eliminate the United States during the first round of the World Cup in 1998.

Mahdavikia's goal in Lyon, France, was the difference in the 2-1 victory — Iran's first ever in the World Cup. The win set off wild celebrations in Tehran, and Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, Iran's supreme leader, hailed the team in a message that said: "Tonight, again, the strong and arrogant opponent felt the bitter taste of defeat at your hands."

One player, Ali Karimi, had green tape wrapped around both wrists during Wednesday's game.

The green bands are not a regular part of their uniforms. In the second half, Mahdavikia kept a light green band on his arm — although he would wear a colored armband to designate him as team captain.

Fans from Iran also showed their support for the demonstrations at home by staging a protest outside the stadium.

They unfurled a banner that read "Go to Hell Dictator," and chanted "Compatriots, we will be with you to the end with the same heart."

During the match, protesters waved the banner, held up green paper signs reading "Where is my vote?" and waved Iran's national flags emblazoned with the plea "Free Iran."
.
 
I'm not sure how good Twitter really is as a source of info, there's no verification of stories and what not (granted mainstream press is not exactly the bees knees at this either). Just seems a strange way of getting the absolute truth from a situation that is quite nuanced and at the moment still quite vague. Everywhere seems to be lapping up the Twitter stories too readily for my liking. Though I guess the media blackout in Iran has a large part to do with this.

the videos and pictures are the only things i'm remotely following anymore. the videos are especially frightening. :down:
 
^

I agree with you. The unfortunate thing about American mainstream media, though, is their general tendency to label people as "good" or "bad" and the way the story has been presented leaves most people who are unaware with the policy positions of Moussavi or Ahmadinejad under the impression that Moussavi is a straight up pro-reformer, when in reality, their positions are much closer together. But I guess we live in an era of instant gratification, so a revolution isn't worth much in our eyes if it's nuanced.

I figure let's complicate things further here. At least from what I've surmised from what the Iranian reformists want, it is pretty much summed up in this Karroubi campaign ad.

YouTube - iran election for change Civil Rights

1 (Girl in street): Defending civil rights
2 (Boy next to old man): Counterbalancing poverty/deprivation
3 (Boy pushing away donation box): Nationalizing oil income
4 (Man standing on rooftop): Reducing tension in international affairs
5 (Boy sitting next to satellite dishes): Free access to information
6 (Girl sitting besides her mother): Supporting single mothers
7 (Girl with cast): Knock down violence against women
8 (Boy): Education for all
9 (Boy infront of man locking car): Increasing public safety
10 (Girl on rooftop): Ethnic and religious minority rights
11 (Man on rooftop): Supporting NGOs
12 (Girl in front of wall): Public involvement
13 (Boy and girl): We have come for change
14: Change for Iran

Karroubi is a reformist, but also happens to be a cleric and self-professed follower of the late Ayatollah Khomeini--not exactly the Western vision for "change," but we also have to remember that Iran marches to its own drumbeat, plus that one cannot discount the religious element to the U.S. civil rights movement, for instance, exemplifying how religion can both be a form of tyranny (Khameini) and a vehicle for the support of freedom (from the POV of the reformists).

I'd also note that most of the above issues are domestic, not international. And I'm not sure if the goal to nationalize Iran's oil income is a Karroubi-specific platform or not. But considering all those oil cheques that Alaskans get on an annual basis, I don't think we can say that the goal itself is all that unprecedented even in the West.

Overall, I'd agree that we can't look at Iran through American lenses. It's more complicated than that, but I think that their overall goal for greater freedom is nonetheless noble.
 
Is this bigger than even Mousavi? From Twitter (so, obviously, it is more of a gauge of popular sentiment than absolute truth):

Remember that Mousavi/Karroubi is not our Ideals, we just voted for Change.

I want more than just a new president, I want an end to this brutal regime.

I'm curious as to how far this could go?
 
Looks like it's going to be all or nothing here. Khameini has no intentions at all of budging, so if the protesters continue, does it mean that they have to topple the government entirely to do so?

Khameini:

"We don't claim there is no corruption in our regime. But this is one of the most healthy systems in the world. Zionists claims of corruption are not right. "My dear people, June 12 was a historic event. Our enemies want to cast doubt on it and portray it as defeat for the regime. The presidential campaign has finished. All of the four candidates are among the Islamic system. The people have trust in the revolution and the republic. The Islamic republic is not cheating against others. There is no cheating inside the election system - it is well controlled. There may been mistakes but 11 million [votes] is not possible.

"The guardian council has said that if people have doubts they should prove them. I will not follow false allegations. In all elections some are winners and some are losers. Correct legal procedures should be followed to ensure trust in the process. "The candidates should be careful about what they say and do" [Mousavi doesn't seem to be there]. "Some diplomats from the west are showing their real face and that they are enemies. The worst are the British.

"The street is the place of living and trading. Why are you taking to the streets? We have had the election. Street demonstrations are a target for terrorist plots. Who would be responsible if something happened?
 
Looks like it's going to be all or nothing here. Khameini has no intentions at all of budging, so if the protesters continue, does it mean that they have to topple the government entirely to do so?

It would appear so to me. Unlike what we are used to in "normal" circumstances, it seems that the regime there is unwilling to sacrifice Khamenei to preserve itself. So I am not really sure what the alternative is.
 
Are we all fully content with the way our own governments are responding at this point?
 
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